Why did you buy golf cart batteries when they were so inferior.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

If you can get away with watering your batteries annually, you are either not using them or they are declining and you just don't know it. Certainly anyone using lead acid batteries in a warm or hot climate needs to check water level monthly.

You can keep your lead acid batteries for a while. Right next to your collection of incandescent light bulbs and DVD player.

My Golf Cart Batteries require an ounce or two of water in each cell when I check them once a year.

They are not declining, and I use them all year.

I don't have shore power.

I do plan to replace the incandescent running lights on my boat before I do too much more night sailing.

Maybe in another year or so since I've only had the boat since 2011. V Berth lamps are incandescent also. Not sure when I will replace them since I rarely use them more than a minute or two at a time.

[rxcsailnet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

I just have to ask this question after the huge support for lead batteries on the "Lead is Dead" thread.

There was always a much better solution than golf cart batteries or marine batteries. As Sailorboy1 openly stated...if he was able to get 10 years out of golf cart batteries he probably would not have moved to Lithium.

Until recently these "Marine" or Golf Cart batteries were not even self watering... can you believe that ....most had to take the top off to put the water in.

The best batteries in the past for house banks was 2v Fork truck cells.

But only very few sailors used them...the rest used Golf Cart or so called marine deep cycle...oh dear oh dear...

So what was the advantage of fork truck 2v cells in the past.


- they lasted 16 years or even 18 ... I sometimes, when all was disconnected, Boiled mine at 32v for a bit.
Oh yes, you could imagine how a thread with these comments in the past would have gone...
Oh...I'm digressing again..

- 2v Fork truck batteries took up less space for a given capacity and had less horrible long cabling.
- They watered themselves through their self watering technology.

- You won't find any golf cart batteries in a fork truck...because they would not last at all... do you think that the fork truck driver cares about batteries like you do? no, they don't, they crawl the completely flat truck back to the charger, go for a short smoko and get back in it and go again.
That's why they need the most robust cells ever made.

- Just imagine, you could have had the all electric galley years ago with 2v cells , but no...you were all still fighting over the safety and benefits of gas on board... another oh dear oh dear.

And even though I have now explained what a huge mistake you made not having fork truck batteries in the past, you are going to repeat it all again buy sticking with your horrible lead batteries when the Lifepo4 alternative is so obviously better, even more obviously better than fork truck 2v cells were, when compared to golf cart batteries in the past.

16 years... they lasted 16 years. Oh, I already said that

I have owned two boats where I upgraded the 12v electrical systems from the stock systems delivered, and consideration of the larger sizes of FLA batteries was definitely one of my considerations. But,

THEY DON'T FIT IN ANY OF THE BOATS.

Not without some horrendous rebuilding of fiberglass structures.

Which is why golf cart batteries were chosen.

And I agree that the new LiFPO4 batteries sound like a good idea for a house bank, but that would mean dealing with AT LEAST TWO DIFFERENT battery chemistries and charging regimes, among the house batteries, main engine and genset starting batteries (2), and the bow thruster/anchor windlass battery. With the need for at least one new alternator and voltage regulator and A/C battery charger and all the associated wiring.

Plus the vagaries of the BMSs inside the Li batteries, which are little computers with a bunch of sensors and control elements for the individual cells in the LI bank. Which may choose to behave badly at just the wrong time. Supposedly the BMSs are getting better, but they are an additional complexity that I don't want to have to worry about. And I don't think I can cross connect a FLA battery to a Li battery if I had to, because of the different chemistries and the BMS.

[sailorboy1]

That was a grumpy post. There drop-in LFPs in a standard battery size box and the BMS certainly aren't some alien electronic devise. Pretty common for boats to have LFP house and lead acid start/windlass batteries and the charging profile is pretty much the same.

I don't care what type of batteries people use. In past I have had 4D acid, GC2 golf cart, G31 carbon foam FireFly lead acid, and G31 drop-in LFPs. Gold cart batteries are fine if the advantages of LFP are not of use to you. But if the LFP features are uselful for your cruising there is no doubt they are currently the way to go and worth the trouble.

[rxcsailnet]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

That was a grumpy post. There drop-in LFPs in a standard battery size box and the BMS certainly aren't some alien electronic devise. Pretty common for boats to have LFP house and lead acid start/windlass batteries and the charging profile is pretty much the same.

I don't care what type of batteries people use. In past I have had 4D acid, GC2 golf cart, G31 carbon foam FireFly lead acid, and G31 drop-in LFPs. Gold cart batteries are fine if the advantages of LFP are not of use to you. But if the LFP features are uselful for your cruising there is no doubt they are currently the way to go and worth the trouble.

The original posting was about using L16 batteries, which are very large. I used to have a friend who lived on a trawler, and he could probably have fit them in his bilge, but he complained mightily about the size of the 8Ds that he did have, when he had to replace them. So, L16s would be completely out of the question.

Regarding different chemistries, I am perfectly happy to see lot of other people experiment with them, and get the bugs worked out before I rewire my boat, again. I am getting old, and the work needed to install a parallel DC system is too much for me to try. I can simply buy new gold cart batteries every 7 years or so, when they start to lose capacity.

Sorry to sound grumpy. I am frustrated by the added complications that are being added to life these days, with equipment that is impossible for someone without special equipment and training to install or repair, and for which I have no confidence that parts will be available when they do break. I don't think that the benefits are worth the loss of robustness. Having had to repair/deal with significant equipment failures at sea, both on boats and ships, a robust system is more valuable to me than one with shiny bells and whistles.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by rxcsailnet

The original posting was about using L16 batteries, which are very large. I used to have a friend who lived on a trawler, and he could probably have fit them in his bilge, but he complained mightily about the size of the 8Ds that he did have, when he had to replace them. So, L16s would be completely out of the question.

Regarding different chemistries, I am perfectly happy to see lot of other people experiment with them, and get the bugs worked out before I rewire my boat, again. I am getting old, and the work needed to install a parallel DC system is too much for me to try. I can simply buy new gold cart batteries every 7 years or so, when they start to lose capacity.

Sorry to sound grumpy. I am frustrated by the added complications that are being added to life these days, with equipment that is impossible for someone without special equipment and training to install or repair, and for which I have no confidence that parts will be available when they do break. I don't think that the benefits are worth the loss of robustness. Having had to repair/deal with significant equipment failures at sea, both on boats and ships, a robust system is more valuable to me than one with shiny bells and whistles.

I'll say from experience that L16s are dramatically easier to move than 8Ds, although they're still not light and easy. The taller form factor with a smaller footprint places the handles better relative to your shoulders, so it's less awkward to lift. And even though they're big, they're still lighter. An L16 is around 125 lbs, while an 8D is typically closer to 160 lbs. There's also an intermediate size that's taller than a GC2 but not as tall as an L16 and is of course in between in capacity.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by rxcsailnet

The original posting was about using L16 batteries, which are very large. I used to have a friend who lived on a trawler, and he could probably have fit them in his bilge, but he complained mightily about the size of the 8Ds that he did have, when he had to replace them. So, L16s would be completely out of the question.

Regarding different chemistries, I am perfectly happy to see lot of other people experiment with them, and get the bugs worked out before I rewire my boat, again. I am getting old, and the work needed to install a parallel DC system is too much for me to try. I can simply buy new gold cart batteries every 7 years or so, when they start to lose capacity.

Sorry to sound grumpy. I am frustrated by the added complications that are being added to life these days, with equipment that is impossible for someone without special equipment and training to install or repair, and for which I have no confidence that parts will be available when they do break. I don't think that the benefits are worth the loss of robustness. Having had to repair/deal with significant equipment failures at sea, both on boats and ships, a robust system is more valuable to me than one with shiny bells and whistles.

Ay, simplicity. As I grow older, and my body grumpier, I find the easiest maintenance is to “do without.” Very fortunately for me my Wife agrees.

Seriously, a lot if this is use and situation dependent. If you are a day/weekend sailor, iff a dock, in a first world country with local resources, then all the bells and whistles are fine. Ince you depart to third wold countries and are hanging on the hook simplicity gains attractiveness. I have had to import both chain and Golf Cart batteries because they were not stick items in country. That I allowed that to occur is on me, but it did occur.

[rxcsailnet]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I'll say from experience that L16s are dramatically easier to move than 8Ds, although they're still not light and easy. The taller form factor with a smaller footprint places the handles better relative to your shoulders, so it's less awkward to lift. And even though they're big, they're still lighter. An L16 is around 125 lbs, while an 8D is typically closer to 160 lbs. There's also an intermediate size that's taller than a GC2 but not as tall as an L16 and is of course in between in capacity.

It all depends on the boat. There are very few places on a sailboat where you can put L16s. Trawlers tend to have enormous bilges with lots of space. And although you might be able to lift them on the dock, getting them into the box inside the boat becomes a lot harder as they get larger and heavier.

For me, the appeal of LFP would be that they have higher capacity in a footprint that allows them to fit into a Group 31 box, which is what was built into my boat. Golf cart batteries are almost exactly the same size as Group 31, with only minor modifications required to fit them. They are about the same weight, as well. Other friends I know have 4Ds on their sailboats, and they hate them, because of the size and awkward size.

For every boat, you have to consider many factors than just capacity and gee-whiz features. Sometimes location and installation costs dominate.

Unless you just want to pay someone to do it, in which case, just get out your checkbook.

[sailorboy1]

In the 8 years I went through a set of golf cart batteries, a set of FireFly and was on a set of LFPs. If someone gets 8 years from a set of golf cart batteries why would they need better ones.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by rxcsailnet

It all depends on the boat. There are very few places on a sailboat where you can put L16s. Trawlers tend to have enormous bilges with lots of space. And although you might be able to lift them on the dock, getting them into the box inside the boat becomes a lot harder as they get larger and heavier.

For me, the appeal of LFP would be that they have higher capacity in a footprint that allows them to fit into a Group 31 box, which is what was built into my boat. Golf cart batteries are almost exactly the same size as Group 31, with only minor modifications required to fit them. They are about the same weight, as well. Other friends I know have 4Ds on their sailboats, and they hate them, because of the size and awkward size.

For every boat, you have to consider many factors than just capacity and gee-whiz features. Sometimes location and installation costs dominate.

Unless you just want to pay someone to do it, in which case, just get out your checkbook.

Agreed, tall batteries don't fit on every boat, and if your battery boxes are integral then you have less options to change form factors. And LFP is certainly more power dense. Personally I wish some of the LFP options were taller with a smaller footprint, as a few of my possible battery locations have limited footprint, but plenty of height.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

There's also an intermediate size that's taller than a GC2 but not as tall as an L16 and is of course in between in capacity.

Yes, they're called a J-305, ~2" taller than a GC2, ~2" shorter than an L16.
Just about the perfect size to fit under many settees.
A substantial increase in capacity over a GC2, but without the weight and height problems of an L16.