Who has Lithium Batteries?

[TabbyCat]

Some underwriters are giving us some pushback on Lithium batteries. They think they are dangerous. I expect there is a difference in safety between off the shelf name brand installations with BMS and do it yourself installations, but let's not get into that debate. What's I'm hoping for is collect some data on what percent of ACTIVE CRUISERS (no daysailors, please) have lithium batteries. So it's as important to answer either way, whether you have them or you don't have them. (My personal opinion is that a large number of cruisers have them, and that they are now reliable and safe, although some early first generation installations may not have been safe.)

1. Cruiser with "Traditional" (non Lithium) house & starter batteries
2. Cruiser with Lithium House batteries
3. Cruiser with Lithium Starter battery
4. Cruiser with Lithium House & Starter batteries
5. Cruiser with Lithium battery powered vessel

[sailorboy1]

I bet a lot of underwriters would give push back if they thought about asking. My understanding is the review of the ABYC addition for LFP has been floating around for years.

I voted, but think your poll would have been better by asking if those cruisers with LFP have comp insurance and does the ins company know they do and cover for it.

[ThereAndBack]

Have you made it clear which lithium chemistry you're using? Some "lithium" batteries are dangerous, maybe they don't understand which type you're putting in.

[TabbyCat]

"Some "lithium" batteries are dangerous"
Any information that you'd like to share on that will be collected and provided to the underwriters, thanks!

[sailing_gal]

LiFePo batteries are safe. A number of boat manufacturers are now installing them as standard equipment. It is the old lithium batteries that are not safe for a boat.

[Cpt Mark]

Another question might be if you have standard batteries will you be upgrading to LiFePo4 when they need replacing. I know I will.

[ThereAndBack]

Originally Posted by TabbyCat

"Some "lithium" batteries are dangerous"
Any information that you'd like to share on that will be collected and provided to the underwriters, thanks!

"LiFePO4 is an intrinsically safer cathode material than LiCoO2 and manganese spinel, through omission of the cobalt, with its negative temperature coefficient of resistance that can encourage thermal runaway. The P–O bond in the (PO4)3− ion is stronger than the Co–O bond in the (CoO2)− ion, so that when abused (short-circuited, overheated, etc.), the oxygen atoms are released more slowly. This stabilization of the redox energies also promotes faster ion migration"

References: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...sphate_battery

Check under the safety section.

[IslandInfedel]

AGM for start
Battle born lithium for house

You can not over charge or really mistreat the BB, it will just shut itself off.


I’d be suspect of a insurance company with that view, what other small print do they have? Nothing is worse than paying into insurance only to have them weasel out of a claim if one day you actually need them

[Mike OReilly]

I love the idea of LiFePO4, but when I look at the cost it is hard to justify.

To replace my 320 amp-hr bank I'd need to spend about $3500 US (so ~$4500 CND). This compares to about $500 US for similar amp-hr golf cart batteries. (Defender prices)

I understand you can more deeply discharge lithium, and the weight saving would be nice, but I bet the typical cruiser will find this price difference hard to justify.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I love the idea of LiFePO4, but when I look at the cost it is hard to justify.

To replace my 320 amp-hr bank I'd need to spend about $3500 US (so ~$4500 CND). This compares to about $500 US for similar amp-hr golf cart batteries. (Defender prices)

I understand you can more deeply discharge lithium, and the weight saving would be nice, but I bet the typical cruiser will find this price difference hard to justify.

And then there is the cost of upgrading the charge sources. If it wasn't for that a lot more people would have them.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I love the idea of LiFePO4, but when I look at the cost it is hard to justify.

To replace my 320 amp-hr bank I'd need to spend about $3500 US (so ~$4500 CND). This compares to about $500 US for similar amp-hr golf cart batteries. (Defender prices)

I understand you can more deeply discharge lithium, and the weight saving would be nice, but I bet the typical cruiser will find this price difference hard to justify.

Well you wouldn't need 320 Ah of LFP as you aren't getting 320 Ah out of your 320 Ah battery bank now. You could probably get away with only 160 Ah of LFP making the cost more like $1800. The cycle life is longer so that would be comparable to two LA replacements or $1,000 total.

So still more expensive but not the 7x more expensive a straight Ah to Ah comparison would suggest.

[ColinIOM]

Hi,
I had a lithium battery fire in my garage while charging a 1000mah battery for an rc IOM model yacht. As a result I would not consider them on my Vancover.
I have 3 brand new Trojan lead acid batteries on storage maintenance charge regime because my plans for this year have been put on hold.
So I have one for engine starting and two for the “House”
We are really looking forward to next year cruising the Stockholm Archipelago.

[ThereAndBack]

Originally Posted by ColinIOM

Hi,
I had a lithium battery fire in my garage while charging a 1000mah battery for an rc IOM model yacht. As a result I would not consider them on my Vancover.
I have 3 brand new Trojan lead acid batteries on storage maintenance charge regime because my plans for this year have been put on hold.
So I have one for engine starting and two for the “House”
We are really looking forward to next year cruising the Stockholm Archipelago.

The chemistry of the battery with which you had a fire is radically different than the lithium we talk about putting on yachts. Please, if you must be ignorant, don't perpetuate it without good reasons.

[ThereAndBack]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

And then there is the cost of upgrading the charge sources. If it wasn't for that a lot more people would have them.

Battleborn batteries are warrantied as drop in replacements for LA batteries. You don't have to change your charge sources. I use them. They work.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by ColinIOM

Hi,
I had a lithium battery fire in my garage while charging a 1000mah battery for an rc IOM model yacht. As a result I would not consider them on my Vancover.
I have 3 brand new Trojan lead acid batteries on storage maintenance charge regime because my plans for this year have been put on hold.
So I have one for engine starting and two for the “House”
We are really looking forward to next year cruising the Stockholm Archipelago.

Do you know the type of lithium battery? Just saying "Lithium" doesn't help too much, apart from just adding to the myth the all Lithium is dangerous and bad.

Classic example of limited knowledge / good intentions and willing to spread the word as gospel... we've seen it over and over again.


And yes, I have both on board, LFP and LA.