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27-01-2017, 04:27
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#61
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cruiser
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 5,030
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend
All this also goes to support his messages that getting to 100% takes a VERY long time, which is why you can NEVER get to 100% every day with Solar alone.
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Why not? the MS figures show absorption to take between 4 & 5 hours. So a decent set up you'll get to absorption by noon with the afternoon left to get back to full charge.
It would be interesting for you to site your data sources, do you have a sophisticated testing setup like mainesail and lots of time?
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27-01-2017, 04:36
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#62
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,888
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend
I don't normally comment on my own posts but I wanted to add something but could not edit my post.
It would have been interesting for HIS comments on the results in the real world. I think this shows a couple of very interesting points. Doubling the size of the charger will not mean this will charge a 100Ah battery faster overnight if you go into a marina at 2000hrs at leave at 0800 hrs. It also shows that if you had a 400Ah battery it would take 24 hrs in a marina - so you will always need two nights!
All this also goes to support his messages that getting to 100% takes a VERY long time, which is why you can NEVER get to 100% every day with Solar alone.
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Sorry, I have to disagree with you. A 400Ah bank will charge just as fast as a 100Ah bank if you have 4x the Amps available for the bulk phase.
Look at his graph on Page 3: for a 100Ah battery Bulk Amps is 18.75. If you have a 400Ah bank and a 75 Amp charging source, it will still take the same 6+ hours.
As for Solar alone - I agree if you regularly discharge to 50% SOC. However, if you size your batteries and solar appropriately, you will never go that low and you will always be in absorption and still only take that same last 5-6 hours to get back to 100%.
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27-01-2017, 05:19
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#63
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 254
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c
Which Liefline AGM battery was that? Exactly equivalent to the Trojan L16?
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Lifeline only publishes generic expected life cycles in their technical battery manual, no graph per battery type.
Allan.
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27-01-2017, 06:45
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#64
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 254
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Trojan's can be charged at .2C to .25C (Trojan tech support can confirm this).
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I recently queried Trojan tech support regarding charging rates for the L16, they responded with: Optimum charge rate is 10-13% of the total C20 capacity of the battery bank. A maximum rate of 20% can be use only if battery temperature does not exceed 100F.
Allan.
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27-01-2017, 07:13
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#65
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: On board in Leros, Greece
Boat: Hunter Legend 420 Passage
Posts: 863
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM
Sorry, I have to disagree with you. A 400Ah bank will charge just as fast as a 100Ah bank if you have 4x the Amps available for the bulk phase.....
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Sorry - I have to agree with you!
Yes if you have 4 times the charger current 400Ah will charge as fast. The trouble is not many people with a 400Ah bank will have a 100 amp charger for a 0.2C charge (20% for the battery and 5% for the boat loads.)
BUT this test was not the real world test with a Smart Charger - as pointed out by MaineSail:
IMPORTANT: Please understand that you will never likely charge this fast with a typical smart charger. Take for example the .4C charge rate. At 19 minutes it hit absorption voltage. Many so called "smart chargers" begin a timer, I call it an egg timer, once absorption voltage has been attained. If that clock started at 19 minutes, and was 2 hours long, the charger would have dropped to a float voltage of 13.4V at 2:19 minutes! OUCH!!!! Considering it took 5:11 minutes of absorption charging at the .4C charge rate your batteries would likely end up under absorbed, under charged and would not last very long. Once we reduce voltage, eg: dropping to float prematurely, we dramatically EXTEND charging times.
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27-01-2017, 07:18
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#66
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: On board in Leros, Greece
Boat: Hunter Legend 420 Passage
Posts: 863
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair
Why not? the MS figures show absorption to take between 4 & 5 hours. So a decent set up you'll get to absorption by noon with the afternoon left to get back to full charge.....
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His was not a "Real World" test where a charger drops to Float mode and the current drops by a factor of 4 to 5. There are just not enough hours in day to fully charge with Solar. My data source is MaineSail himself.
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27-01-2017, 10:09
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#67
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cruiser
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 5,030
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend
His was not a "Real Worlud" test where a charger drops to Float mode and the current drops by a factor of 4 to 5. There are just not enough hours in day to fully charge with Solar. My data source is MaineSail himself.
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OK, that makes more sense ,. so you're actually saying ...
"All this also goes to support his messages that getting to 100% takes a VERY long time, which is why you can NEVER get to 100% every day with Solar alone.
IF you have a 3 stage regulator fitted and IF you /haven't /can't increase the time to float or float voltage "
Both my solar regulators are dumb with just a voltage setting.
And maybe this will meaning digging out a stalled raspberry pi data logging project to see what's going on with the new 2 x 100w panels which got mounted today.
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27-01-2017, 10:13
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#68
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cat herder, extreme blacksheep
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 18,967
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
i use lth 6 v flooded batteries i find in ferreterias in mexico --the lth distributor in here in mazatlan.
prices are controlled in mexico, so walmart,sams, and the ferreteria have essentially same price on similar items. many times i have found ferreteria prices less than walmart or sams prices.
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27-01-2017, 10:33
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#69
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: So Cal
Boat: Catalina 387
Posts: 967
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM
.....
As for Solar alone - I agree if you regularly discharge to 50% SOC. However, if you size your batteries and solar appropriately, you will never go that low and you will always be in absorption and still only take that same last 5-6 hours to get back to 100%.
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Indeed. I never can get to 100% on my boat because I just don't have enough solar. Can't even get close. So cruising trips involve turning off the fridge at night, beer in a cooler, maybe a genset, etc... The boat is powered by shore power most days so it works out. 150W of solar with a crap PWM controller.
But on my motorhome, It's got to be a very cloudy day in socal to not get the batteries back to 100% every day (or at least close enough). My battery bank is a bit small for the loads, but even there I normally never discharge below 70%. 450W of solar on the roof, Midnight Kid MPPT controller with temp probe and shunt. Bulk is done by 10 or 11am most days, float by 3pm or so. I really like the fact the Kid drops from absorb to float based on the amount of current going into the battery. It's not the amount of current the Kid is making (which may be ~10A more than what's going into the battery due to house loads) - the net input to the battery. Wouldn't it be nice if all chargers have a shunt and do this?
Boat and MH both are 240Ah of FLA golfcarts. Big load on each is fridge. Boat is typical danfoss. MH is a 10cuf residential unit running off of an inverter. I haven't plugged the MH into shore power since I put the solar on. (Weekend use though. I'd need more battery for full time use to get by a cloudy day or three)
I agree that most boats never get to 100% on solar alone - likely not enough space for panels. But if you've got enough solar, it's sunny, and loads are low enough - it is possible.
I also wonder if there's a market for a decent 'universal' charger rather than hooking up seperate shore power charger, an alternator controller, a solar controller, a wind or water contoller, etc.. Something that could output enough to charge the battery with any/all of the sources going to it. With temp compensation and a shunt to measure battery current. With charge and current knowledge a better (not perfect) monitor could be incorporated. Does such a thing exist?
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27-01-2017, 12:35
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#70
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: St. Petersburg FL
Boat: Morgan, center cockpit sloop, 44 - Enough
Posts: 123
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine1983
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Yes the Trojan T105 in pairs are excellent. But I have found somewhat upgraded Trojan T125 in pairs to provide just that added amp hour capacity and better overall performance in a form factor footprint that is just plain worth it. They are generally available, reasonably priced and if your charger is equalization capable, will benefit from quarterly equalization.
http://www.trojanbattery.com/product/t-125/
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28-01-2017, 02:14
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: On board in Leros, Greece
Boat: Hunter Legend 420 Passage
Posts: 863
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair
....IF you have a 3 stage regulator fitted and IF you /haven't /can't increase the time to float or float voltage "...
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So many people say that by midday their batteries are full charged because a little green solar light has come on telling them the batteries are full. This probably means that they have dropped down to a FLOAT voltage which will reduce the charging current. They may still be as low as 90 to 95% so there will definitely not be enough hours left in the day to get to 100%.
Battery Monitors are no better because the solar charger can confuse them to indicate that they are at 100%. Lots of posts here on this "Charging Gotcha"
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28-01-2017, 02:38
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#72
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cruiser
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 5,030
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend
So many people say that by midday their batteries are full charged because a little green solar light has come on telling them the batteries are full. This probably means that they have dropped down to a FLOAT voltage which will reduce the charging current. They may still be as low as 90 to 95% so there will definitely not be enough hours left in the day to get to 100%.
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Which is why it would be helpful to others to be more precise in posting, "you can't get fully charged with solar" is a bit misleading, what would be more helpful would be to go into why this might be the case on some boats and what can be done to get up to full charge.
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28-01-2017, 04:13
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#73
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: On board in Leros, Greece
Boat: Hunter Legend 420 Passage
Posts: 863
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair
....what would be more helpful would be to go into why this might be the case on some boats and what can be done to get up to full charge.
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I've already said that there are a lot of posts on the "Charging Gotcha".
Please, please use the search function. We can't keep posting the same information again and again!!!!
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28-01-2017, 04:15
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#74
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cruiser
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 5,030
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend
I've already said that there are a lot of posts on the "Charging Gotcha".
Please, please use the search function. We can't keep posting the same information again and again!!!!
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But we can help others by not posting misleading comments.
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28-01-2017, 05:12
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#75
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 58' Sedan Bridge
Posts: 5,418
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Re: What batteries are you using and where are you buying them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayates
Lifeline only publishes generic expected life cycles in their technical battery manual, no graph per battery type.
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Hmmm... Wouldn't have thought they'd advise their G27s (or whatever) would have the same life cycle profile as their L16 equivalents. And I'd have expected their L16 life cycle profile to be much closer to Trojan's L16 profile than your graph depicts. And possibly with the higher values of the two, all along the curve...
-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA.
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