Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-11-2022, 01:41   #31
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,679
Images: 3
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Since I got the new lithium batteries, I have to do some electrical work. I have a temporary construction electrical system installed currently. It has actually been installed for many years now and has worked fine. Oddly enough. Although talk about tinned copper wire, I just used Home Depot crap for a temporary installation during the construction phase and it didnít corrode. Go figure. Iíll take some pictures of pulling it apart when I do this new wiring.

Looking at things in general, with an open mind and not from a Boat perspective, I am thinking of a solution that might be more elegant. Iím wondering what people think.

What about switches at the point of use?

Itís kind of annoying to always have to go over to the electrical panel. Especially on my boat now because itís a pretty long walk.

But I can think of all the boats that I have ever owned and having to always go to that electrical panel to turn things on and off. Be it the anchor light, a refrigerator, a wash down pump or whatever.

Wouldnít it make a lot more sense to have the switch at the point of use?

So if I want to turn on my anchor light, I donít go back to the electrical panel and flip a breaker. At the helm I just turn the anchor light on.

What about just having a set of fuses and then having the switching function at the point of use?

This means the wiring would always be live to the switch. But itís also properly fused so if they were a problem the fuse would blow.

Iím not the type of person who would just keep resetting a breaker and trying to use the circuit. I donít think thatís a good idea ever. It needs a rewiring or some kind of fix if itís blowing breakers. So once a fuse blows, I would fix anything thatís wrong and then put in the new fuse.

But Iím wondering why boats arenít set up like this typically.

From an ease-of-use perspective it makes more sense.

You could use something like this.




And have nice looking engraved switches around in different places where they are used.



There are several Chinese suppliers will custom engrave those switches also.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2022, 03:36   #32
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,679
Images: 3
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

Itís a good point. Iím always annoyed that common things require you to leave the helm. The nav lights are a common case. In my case these are now RF remotely switched from the helm.

In fact the next iteration will have a ď go sailing button ď at the helm , this will enable the instruments vhf , anchor etc.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2022, 06:34   #33
Registered User
 
Matt Johnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Annapolis MD
Boat: Building a Max Cruise 44 hybrid electric cat
Posts: 2,965
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Two options

Run low current lines and use relay switches T the load point

Get some very inexpensive 443mfz Rf senders receivers typically the receivers have a relay. Switch with this relay

I use the Rf modules all around the boat in this manner ( cockpit lights ) entrance lights ( activated by a Rf fob ) and so forth.

I use battery powered stick on wall switches with rf as well to place some cabin switches in more suitable places. Saves walking around the boat turning on the individual light fittings. Now my rf switch outside the fwd cabin turns on a path of lights to the head , etc.
I was thinking of this solution for overhead lights where I don't want to run the wires to a switch within the bullhead. How are the reliability of these?
__________________
MJSailing - Youtube Vlog -
Matt Johnson is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2022, 10:48   #34
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,679
Images: 3
What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Johnson View Post
I was thinking of this solution for overhead lights where I don't want to run the wires to a switch within the bullhead. How are the reliability of these?


Reliability is good Iíve no noticeable issues. Even if one switch operations fails the Natural outcome is to flick thd switch again usually the second one does it.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2022, 13:50   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Seattle
Boat: Olson 40
Posts: 51
Images: 2
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

On updating Mustang Sally’s electrics I put in two sub-panels, one on each side of the companionway, within the cabin, in the area behind the cockpit instruments (as viewed from the helm). The port side is related to nav lights and other nightfall beckoned switches. The stbd side is related to the “always on” scheme of switches, eg: bilge pumps and refer power, etc.

These sub-panels are fed by a single #6 awg wire set (pwr and gnd), fused within the battery box, feeding two separate 40A circuit breakers, each located above their Blue Sea six-pack of 15 amp switches, port and stbd.

Locating these two power centers to the companion way area, away from the main panel, allows nightfall activity to be taken from the cockpit – just reach around and flip the switch. See attached photos.

And another trick – the top switch on the port panel, an ON-OFF-ON switch, is for nav lights: Toggle the switch to Stbd turns on Sailing nav lights, toggle the switch to Port turns on Powering nav lights (meaning the steaming light is included).
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1 Port-Stbd Panels .jpg
Views:	36
Size:	227.3 KB
ID:	267951   Click image for larger version

Name:	2 Port-Stbd Panels .jpg
Views:	35
Size:	393.4 KB
ID:	267952  

tdgaffney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2022, 15:16   #36
Registered User
 
rwidman's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 5,080
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItDepends View Post
If you size the wire to carry 50 Amps at the voltage drop you want, and fuse it to based on its rated ampacity, it will be perfectly safe carrying 49.8 amps all day.

Assuming the installer properly sizes the wire, there is no more danger from running the wire at 99% of expected full load, over running at 10%. Danger comes NOT from the normal expected loads but from the unexpected events.

Your "feeling" that a system carrying 10 amps in wire designed for 50 Amps is somehow "safer" than that same system carrying 49 Amps is not reality.
As long as you keep the environment of the wire in mind. A conductor in open air can safely carry more current than a conductor bundled with other current carrying conductors and encased in a conduit in an engine space.
__________________
Ron
HIGH COTTON
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2022, 15:19   #37
Registered User
 
rwidman's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 5,080
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

If there is any confusion in your mind as to where in a circuit the circuit protection needs to be installed, you really should not be modifying the wiring in your boat.

Get professional help.
__________________
Ron
HIGH COTTON
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2022, 16:33   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 7,700
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdgaffney View Post
On updating Mustang Sallyís electrics I put in two sub-panels, one on each side of the companionway, within the cabin, in the area behind the cockpit instruments (as viewed from the helm). The port side is related to nav lights and other nightfall beckoned switches. The stbd side is related to the ďalways onĒ scheme of switches, eg: bilge pumps and refer power, etc.

These sub-panels are fed by a single #6 awg wire set (pwr and gnd), fused within the battery box, feeding two separate 40A circuit breakers, each located above their Blue Sea six-pack of 15 amp switches, port and stbd.

Locating these two power centers to the companion way area, away from the main panel, allows nightfall activity to be taken from the cockpit Ė just reach around and flip the switch. See attached photos.

And another trick Ė the top switch on the port panel, an ON-OFF-ON switch, is for nav lights: Toggle the switch to Stbd turns on Sailing nav lights, toggle the switch to Port turns on Powering nav lights (meaning the steaming light is included).

Cool!

This is exactly what Iím doing. Big conductor all around the catamaran square shape, then tee off to the small panels.

I really like your Starboard = sail and port = power idea
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2022, 16:34   #39
Registered User
 
CaptTom's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Southern Maine
Boat: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Posts: 2,629
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

As a power boater, I find this discussion sort of humorous. Power boats have been wired with switches at the helm, or point of use, for years. Seems putting all the switches down in the cabin at one panel is a sailboat thing. Sort of like having all the navigation and comms equipment down there too.

The simplest solution is to have a breaker panel at one electrical distribution point, and run all the loads back to that. Put the switches at the helm, near the load, or in the case of cabin lights, near the entrance to that space. I wouldn't go with fuses.

With two helms, I have my running lights on a relay, powered by either helm. You could do the same and have one switch at the helm and another below in a convenient spot.

I know remote switching is becoming more popular, but I don't really see the value with the extra cost, reduced reliability and parasitic loads.
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2022, 01:30   #40
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,679
Images: 3
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

I see no point in multiple remote panels. Panels are for breakers not switches
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2022, 02:44   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 7,700
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I see no point in multiple remote panels. Panels are for breakers not switches

I think the idea is either of two things.

First, it might be for breakers. Or even fuses with switches.

If you have the big conductor going around the boat, and you are teeing off to run your MFD for instance, the MFD requires a 7 amp circuit protection. Youíll either need to use a breaker or a fuse and switch combination after the tee.

So the small panel is nice to organize that.

You could use in-line fuses and switches after the T, but, much harder if you have a problem.




Second, a panel or other type of grouping of switches just service to organize the switches if thatís all you have.
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2022, 02:49   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 7,700
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
As a power boater, I find this discussion sort of humorous. Power boats have been wired with switches at the helm, or point of use, for years. Seems putting all the switches down in the cabin at one panel is a sailboat thing. Sort of like having all the navigation and comms equipment down there too.

The simplest solution is to have a breaker panel at one electrical distribution point, and run all the loads back to that. Put the switches at the helm, near the load, or in the case of cabin lights, near the entrance to that space. I wouldn't go with fuses.

With two helms, I have my running lights on a relay, powered by either helm. You could do the same and have one switch at the helm and another below in a convenient spot.

I know remote switching is becoming more popular, but I don't really see the value with the extra cost, reduced reliability and parasitic loads.
Yes. A completely ridiculous convention isnít it? There are a lot of things on boats that are really stupid and make no sense. Iím designing all of those things out of my boat.

I definitely agree with your post and the approach. There is no below in my boat. There is an electrical closet, but Iíd rather have everything accessible at the helm or at the point of use. So only the giant conductor will be protected at that electrical closet where all of the equipment is.
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2022, 06:13   #43
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,679
Images: 3
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Yes. A completely ridiculous convention isnít it? There are a lot of things on boats that are really stupid and make no sense. Iím designing all of those things out of my boat.



I definitely agree with your post and the approach. There is no below in my boat. There is an electrical closet, but Iíd rather have everything accessible at the helm or at the point of use. So only the giant conductor will be protected at that electrical closet where all of the equipment is.


I think you can be as sophisticated or simple as you desire

In my case I have distributed switching in several places nav lights and sailing instruments can be switched on from the helm and chart table.

Equally outdoor cockpit safety and boarding lights can be switched on from two places and from a remote fob

Interior switches are used to light paths to commonly used routes as opposed to stacks of individual switches. The system allows reconfiguration as demands change too.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2022, 06:51   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 7,700
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I think you can be as sophisticated or simple as you desire

In my case I have distributed switching in several places nav lights and sailing instruments can be switched on from the helm and chart table.

Equally outdoor cockpit safety and boarding lights can be switched on from two places and from a remote fob

Interior switches are used to light paths to commonly used routes as opposed to stacks of individual switches. The system allows reconfiguration as demands change too.

I would love to see your set up someday. I especially like that key fob idea.

However on mine, Iím going to keep it very simple. I have a lot of other jobs to do. The boat isnít going to finish itself. So if I put all of that time in to doing the type of switching that you do as more of a hobby, I would never finish this thing. And Iím already close to never finishing. Ha ha

So it will be very simple for me.
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2022, 08:14   #45
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,679
Images: 3
Re: What about fuses with the switches at point of use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
I would love to see your set up someday. I especially like that key fob idea.



However on mine, Iím going to keep it very simple. I have a lot of other jobs to do. The boat isnít going to finish itself. So if I put all of that time in to doing the type of switching that you do as more of a hobby, I would never finish this thing. And Iím already close to never finishing. Ha ha



So it will be very simple for me.


The receivers are 12v typically

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1669475482.954109.jpg
Views:	23
Size:	164.8 KB
ID:	267965

The fobs are

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1669475502.166826.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	169.7 KB
ID:	267966

The wall switches are self contained and battery powered

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1669475643.624895.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	83.7 KB
ID:	267967

All very simple
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
fuses

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Are my wires properly fused and sized? Peregrine1983 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 12 19-06-2017 10:41
Fused battery connector Up to the task? sharpey Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 59 07-08-2016 09:06
Inverter connection to battery - Fused? BozSail Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 9 26-02-2015 17:43
Fused Terminal Block similar to Blue Sea Systems ST Blade Fuse Block zboss Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 4 21-08-2013 21:31
Fused / Switched Negative DC, EU vs. US batkins61 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 11 15-02-2012 15:31

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:35.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.