Wakespeed WS500

[PNWSalmon]

Originally Posted by PaulCrawhorn

So a scripted Arduino meta-controller overseeing the Wakespeed logic, feeding CLI commends as needed..

Except, the usb plug is inside, behind beefy steel. So you have to connect via canbus which means an arduino plus more hardware, or drilling a hole, which defeats the structural design. A poor design choice on Wakespeed’s part.

We love our unit though, so much happier with it than the Balmars. It just works, and taking good care of our firefly batteries, and later, new chemistry ones.

[DDW]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@DDW#13

I don't understand. I literally put the WS500 on my dining room table, hooked up my Windows laptop and played with the various parameters in the canned programs for about ½ hour. There was nothing else to learn.

...


Your experience with the WS500 is completely different than mine.

That's diddling a little. And requires a cable and laptop. A Balmar can be done in as little or less time and you need only what comes in the box, no Windows computer or disassembly. On the Balmar you can change a parameter with a quick trip to the engine room with your magnet. On the Wakespeed, open the cover, plug in the cable, bring your Windows laptop. I leave the cover off and have run a cable up to the helm console so I can monitor and change things in real time, all the time. That makes it considerably easier than the Balmar. I am also willing to send it CLI commands, but again that is diddling.

On the undercharge thing, this really is a thing, you'd have to be monitoring it with Putty or some other TTY to see this (or keep a close eye on voltage and amperage into the battery). It is possible mine is the only one in the world that does this, but I highly doubt it. If you spend a lot of time in a marina, or doing long engine runs, the batteries will get charged. But with shorter engine runs as the only source of charge, the early switch to float is ultimately damaging to the AGM batteries. You are never going to see this in an LFP setup, and the behavior is in any case more appropriate for LFP than for AGM.

[smac999]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@DDW#13

I don't understand. I literally put the WS500 on my dining room table, hooked up my Windows laptop and played with the various parameters in the canned programs for about ½ hour. There was nothing else to learn.

So let’s say next week you start the engine and no charging happens. What are your trouble shooting steps?

On the balmar I pull a volt meter. Abd I have direct access to the power, ground, ign, and v sense pins to measure. 75% of the time I’m called to a boat for a non working ext reg alt. it’s missing one of the 3 powers. Broken wire, blown fuse etc. it’s trouble shooted in 30 secs.

After that my next check is the feild voltage. Direct access to the pin.

On the ws500. My first step is going to have to pull out a knife and strip all the sealed harness wires open so I can test them. Even inside the box I can not measure voltages.

After running the motor for 30 mins. What’s the alt temp? On bal it’s right on the screen. At this point. I have no way to tell on the ws.

[JBPohle]

Keep trying their customer support. I’ve now had two cruising seasons with two WS500’s, LFP battery bank, Victron and Rec Duo BMS. Excellent performance so far.

[CharlieJ]

@smac999#18:
Rather than testing at the regulator end for power, ignition and ground at the regulator end of the harness, why not go to the attachment points at the other end of the harness for the first test? And, if you believe that the harness or military grade connector has a fault, you can ring out the harness in about two minutes. Regarding temperature of the alternator, use your IR thermometer and you are don.

Look, I have been installing Balmar regulators for over 20 years. There is a lot of code embedded in them and, with some amount of cut and try, they do a pretty good job. The WakeSpeed senses current and cranks that into the algorithm so computational adjustments to the charging profile can be made on the fly. it is just a better piece of gear that has evolved. YMMV.

[DDW]

Originally Posted by smac999

So let’s say next week you start the engine and no charging happens. What are your trouble shooting steps?

On the balmar I pull a volt meter. Abd I have direct access to the power, ground, ign, and v sense pins to measure. 75% of the time I’m called to a boat for a non working ext reg alt. it’s missing one of the 3 powers. Broken wire, blown fuse etc. it’s trouble shooted in 30 secs.

After that my next check is the feild voltage. Direct access to the pin.

On the ws500. My first step is going to have to pull out a knife and strip all the sealed harness wires open so I can test them. Even inside the box I can not measure voltages.

After running the motor for 30 mins. What’s the alt temp? On bal it’s right on the screen. At this point. I have no way to tell on the ws.

This is why I say the Balmar is perhaps more approachable - you program and debug it by means more familiar to the layman.

If you are working on a Wakespeed, you really need the cable and a laptop. Plug that in and you have instant access to voltage, amperage, configuration, alt temp, bat temp, field drive, alt speed, engine speed, and numerous other things. Very much more observability than the Balmar - but requires the laptop.

In an AGM system, they do about the same job, with one very important difference: the Balmar cannot tell when your batteries are charged, it attempts to guess but misses that guess very frequently, sometimes by a large margin. In an LFP system with a CAN connected BMS, the Balmar isn't in the same league.

[DDW]

Originally Posted by JBPohle

Keep trying their customer support. I’ve now had two cruising seasons with two WS500’s, LFP battery bank, Victron and Rec Duo BMS. Excellent performance so far.

I did finally reach someone there. They acknowledge what I am seeing and we are hopefully working towards a solution.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

Your experience with the WS500 is completely different than mine.

My experience is similar to SMAC999. The Walkspeed is half a product. The half that they finished is good, but the config and monitoring part is MIA.


In 15 years, the Wakespeed software is the first thing I've encountered that doesn't run on a Mac-hosted Windows OS. I don't have a windows laptop. Don't want one, never needed one, even for programs that only run on windows.


The only way I could program my WS500, or even see how it was already programmed, was to uninstall it, take it to my pilot house, and use my boat's nav computer to program it. But then there's no way to monitor it when reinstalled to see how things are working, and to make adjustments.


Also, the Batch files and command line interface are soooo 1970s. To use them you need to sit with the batch files, the manual, and you computer hooked up (the computer I don't have) and issues commands, look up how to decode the results in the manual because it's just a list of numbers, then type a command, hand encoding all those numbers and hoping you got it all right. It's like reading and decoding NMEA 0183 sentences, and then typing in your own. I mean Really? This is why god invented computers - 50 years ago...


So if you don't want to be tortured by 1970s batch commands, you can buy a bootleg third party program that does what wakespeed should have delivered to you in the first place. It works, and is reasonably civilized to use, but also only runs on a native windows machine. I think it's the USB driver that's the root problem.


The worst part is that Wakespeed doesn't care at all about this, or is deaf to the problem. They told me to either buy a windows laptop or buy and android phone. WFT?


I never thought I'd say these words, but the Balmar is easy to program, monitor, and diagnose compared to the Wakespeed.


I wasted well over two days screwing around trying to get the thing programmed - time that greatly exceeds the value of the product. If I were doing it again, I'd go back to Balmar, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. Hopefully one day they will finish the product.

[PNWSalmon]

After waiting for how many years for Balmar to make some advancements on their regulator, the Wakespeed is a welcome relief. I flipped the dip switches and installed the thing and was done. If I want to program it in more detail, at least I can, even if it means having to jump through annoying hoops.

After balmar units failing because of heat, and lack of current sense causing problems between wind, solar, and alternator, i was more than happy to put with any difficulties in the wakspeeed. It’s a superior product, better casing, easier to install, more manageable, software upgrade able and being actively developed.

Is the batch file craziness worse than the magnet reed switch ? It’s probably the same level of annoying, but I need the features of the Wakespeed to protect my batteries and alternator and make the, operate at their peak. If Balmar had such an offering I probably would have stayed with them out of loyalty, but I’m super happy with the Wakespeed.

If Wakespeed really is half a product, it’s the half I want.

[goboatingnow]

The wakespeed is of course a follow on to an open source alternator , the details are still on the net.

The real solution to the wakespeed would be to add Bluetooth configuration ability , but if you see the open source code you’ll see it predates all this.

[DDW]

I'm not going to defend Wakespeed's choices in UI. The Balmar is little better, and you sure wouldn't want to program everything the Wakespeed will do with a magnet. ASCII Serial sentences every second are actually more informative than a 3 character 7 segment 70's LED display cycling though 14 parameters (only once!), though not everyone will see it that way. Most current GPS receivers have an interface very similar to the Wakespeed, it's just buried under something.

But - I'm not sure what you did, I own only a MacIntosh, ran the batch files and the 3rd party program on it just fine, reliably and no issues. No drivers needed. Also ran Putty, though there are plenty of terminal programs native on the Mac, in fact it is built into the Mach terminal app. Using the USB cable run to the pilothouse hooked to my Mac, running Putty in a Windows VM, I could monitor and log it all day long (and did), and make changes at will. So that particular complaint may be a case of, as the support people say, PEBKC.

I wish they'd finish it as well. Monitoring now can be done (with public beta software) from a Victron GX device. And they have a new parent company, so we'll see if things change. Only so much you can do as a two person enterprise.

I had the Balmar installed and working, and pulled it out because it lacked capability - the Wakespeed should in fact do what the Balmar cannot. So they really aren't interchangeable, at least in challenging applications, regardless of UI. Especially true in a complicated CAN networked BMS install. And the Wakespeed will get better, the Balmar hasn't changed in at least 15 years - there is no development staff at the current company.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by DDW

But - I'm not sure what you did, I own only a MacIntosh, ran the batch files and the 3rd party program on it just fine, reliably and no issues. No drivers needed. Also ran Putty, though there are plenty of terminal programs native on the Mac, in fact it is built into the Mach terminal app. Using the USB cable run to the pilothouse hooked to my Mac, running Putty in a Windows VM, I could monitor and log it all day long (and did), and make changes at will. So that particular complaint may be a case of, as the support people say, PEBKC.

Are you running parallels, or VMWare? I'm running VMWare and tried with Windows XP and Windows 7. Neither could communicate with the WS using Putty, the batch files (which I think use Putty), or the 3rd party GUI app. Tried updating drivers, etc. With this one exception, my experience is the same as yours running hosted Windows. In fact, I have fewer compatibility and driver issues running hosted windows vs native windows.



OK, I have to ask, what's PEBKC? I've been out of the industry for too long.....



I also confess to having a very low tolerance for tech stuff that doesn't work. I spent my whole working life designing and building such stuff. It's one thing when you are developing something, but another thing entirely when you are a consumer/customer. I buy stuff to make my life easier, and to save me time to do other things. Unfortunately all too many tech products end up consuming your time, not saving it. I spent decades fighting with Windows to keep it running. Uninstall, reinstall. Update drivers. Fix this and break that. It may well have consumed more of my time than it saved over the years. That's why now I do everything possible on a Mac. Perfect, no, but much, much better at just working without drama.


Anyway, 8 years or so ago I adopted a new tech policy which is two strikes and you are gone. I will engage tech support, software updates, or other it-doesn't-work-events no more than 2 times, after which I just return the product. I refuse to get sucked down the black hole of messing with something that doesn't work, and trying to coax it into action. In the end that's just doing the work that the developer skimped on. I'm in the process now of returning 4 inverter/chargers because one of their fundamental features simply doesn't work. It's appalling, and will be a lot of work and cost for me to refit for different inverters, but what I got suckered into is a clear dead end.

[PNWSalmon]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Are you running parallels, or VMWare? I'm running VMWare and tried with Windows XP and Windows 7. Neither could communicate with the WS using Putty, the batch files (which I think use Putty), or the 3rd party GUI app. Tried updating drivers, etc. With this one exception, my experience is the same as yours running hosted Windows. In fact, I have fewer compatibility and driver issues running hosted windows vs native windows.

Don’t feel bad. I’m a network engineer with over 25 years experience and I couldn’t get it to work with my mac. VMware , latest version. Tried with windows 7 and 10.

I had to do exactly what you did and get it upgraded via the boat computer. It was really bad.

But I really need this product so I’m rooting for the company to succeed. In fact their website just announced yesterday remote access is coming.

And the last bit … problem exists between keyboard and screen … I.e., you (and me)

[DDW]

Tanglewood,

I also have little tolerance for Windows. Perhaps the 15 years spent working at Apple in the early days had something to do with that bias, but objectively, Windows is a steaming pile.

I'm using a Macbook Pro 16 running Catalina, VMWare 12, Windows 7 in a VM (also XP3 and W10, but get nauseous every time I run 10 so do it as little as possible).

It is possible you did not select the right serial port in Windows? Every time you plug a serial adapter in, it seems to create a new serial port, I think I found it at serial #8 in my case. You have to open the devices manager in W7 to see where it ended up. I needed no drivers, installed nothing, just found the right port and it all worked. The serial numbering thing is a Windows or maybe VMWare thing.

I'm with you on wanting technology that I paid for to work. In this case though, the Balmar did not work. The Wakespeed works (or is on the verge of working....). And will improve. The Balmar 614 I bought last year for this boat looks identical to the one I bought 2 boats ago, in about 1996. It was called a 612 then but I don't see any differences other than the label.

I'll threaten you with this: When I return to the boat in a couple of weeks, I will attempt to write a Mac app that monitors and controls the Wakespeed. It really looks somewhat trivial. I'm not thinking anything fancy, just clearly displayed and labelled numbers, maybe with an up or down trend information, logging the raw data in case tech support is called upon, perhaps the ability to force modes and change the few parameters that you really want to play with. I'll be writing it in a cross platform IDE, so theoretically it could work on Windows, though I won't test it much there. Could do an iOS version but there is currently no means to access the data stream.

Now I think about it, the app could fix the problem I mentioned in the OP - though I really shouldn't need to control the control.

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by smac999

So let’s say next week you start the engine and no charging happens. What are your trouble shooting steps?

After that my next check is the feild voltage. Direct access to the pin.

On the ws500. My first step is going to have to pull out a knife and strip all the sealed harness wires open so I can test them. Even inside the box I can not measure voltages.

After running the motor for 30 mins. What’s the alt temp? On bal it’s right on the screen. At this point. I have no way to tell on the ws.

Troubleshooting the Wakespeed is pretty trivial. Initially, I just look at my Victron Cerbo to see what the field percentage is, the alternator current, reported RPMs, and alternator temperature.

If the CANbus link is down, then I plug into the USB port, and look at the status messages it’s spitting out. The AST line contains the full status of the unit.

Failing that, there are test points on the board itself, but In haven’t had to use them.

Never a need to cut into the wiring harness.