Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-05-2022, 17:23   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 1,390
Victron multiplus questions

Hi all,

I have a 400AH lifepo4 battery on the way and trying to decide on my charger/inverter setup.

Originally I was going to go with a Victron Multiplus, as it would integrate nicely with my Cerbo GX but I found a couple of things that wouldn't work super great and I have some questions I hope people can answer, namely:

- Apparently, there is no way to turn the unit off and still have it pass through shore power. This is annoying for me, as on my last boat I had the charger off most of the time and just let the batteries cycle with the solar. If I was going out somewhere, I'd turn on the charger in the morning or the night before and so head out with full batteries. Apparently, you can't turn the charger off and have the unit still pass AC through. This seems incredibly annoying, can someone else confirm?

- I have a dual bus system, with relays leading to each bus. They are 'dumb' relays, meant as a backup to the primary charge control system (a victron battery protect and a sterling prolatch R) and in case the canbus malfunctions or something similar. The multiplus doing both charging and inverter over the same set of leads means that I'll have to leave at least one side unprotected (I'd probably connect to the charge bus). The sterling prolatch can apparently handle bi-directional current, unlike the battery protect so that at least would probably work. Does anyone have a way around this? How do other people cope with it?

edit: I also don't like the 'autotransfer switch' I'd prefer it to be a manual switch I have to phyiscally turn.

The first question is more a problem with the multiplus itself, while the second would apply to any inverter/charger

If I don't get the multiplus, what standalone inverters do people recommend? For a charger I'd probably get a Victron phoenix as those talk to the cerbo still - but they don't make phoenix inverters in 110.
__________________
www.saildivefish.ca
alctel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2022, 17:52   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,207
Re: Victron multiplus questions

I'm pretty sure you can put the multiplus in inverter only mode from the Cerbo. That should disable the charger but keep the rest of the functionality working.
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2022, 18:59   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 1,390
Re: Victron multiplus questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
I'm pretty sure you can put the multiplus in inverter only mode from the Cerbo. That should disable the charger but keep the rest of the functionality working.
So if I did that, it wouldn't automatically try to invert from the batteries right, as it's plugged into shorepower?

I wish I could just switch both off and have it pass through
__________________
www.saildivefish.ca
alctel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2022, 19:04   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Fountaine Pajot, Helia 44 - Hull #16
Posts: 609
Re: Victron multiplus questions

I have the victron color controller with the multiplex and you can have invert only, charge only, off or on as options. I do just what you want, turn off charging and leave the inverter on. However it is not a pass through, it is using the battery for inverting.
AllenRbrts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2022, 19:10   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Queensland, Australia
Boat: Leopard 42
Posts: 110
Re: Victron multiplus questions

It can be done by using a victron assistant and an input to enable or disable charging. There is a fair amount of discussion online at https://community.victronenergy.com/...no-charge.html
swampbush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2022, 04:43   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,207
Re: Victron multiplus questions

I think "Inverter Only" mode will still use the transfer switch and pass shore power through, but will switch to inverting if shore power is lost. I'll try to remember to test on my own setup when I'm there later today.
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2022, 05:34   #7
always in motion is the future
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 18,858
Re: Victron multiplus questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by alctel View Post
Hi all,

I have a 400AH lifepo4 battery on the way and trying to decide on my charger/inverter setup.

Originally I was going to go with a Victron Multiplus, as it would integrate nicely with my Cerbo GX but I found a couple of things that wouldn't work super great and I have some questions I hope people can answer, namely:

- Apparently, there is no way to turn the unit off and still have it pass through shore power. This is annoying for me, as on my last boat I had the charger off most of the time and just let the batteries cycle with the solar. If I was going out somewhere, I'd turn on the charger in the morning or the night before and so head out with full batteries. Apparently, you can't turn the charger off and have the unit still pass AC through. This seems incredibly annoying, can someone else confirm?

- I have a dual bus system, with relays leading to each bus. They are 'dumb' relays, meant as a backup to the primary charge control system (a victron battery protect and a sterling prolatch R) and in case the canbus malfunctions or something similar. The multiplus doing both charging and inverter over the same set of leads means that I'll have to leave at least one side unprotected (I'd probably connect to the charge bus). The sterling prolatch can apparently handle bi-directional current, unlike the battery protect so that at least would probably work. Does anyone have a way around this? How do other people cope with it?

edit: I also don't like the 'autotransfer switch' I'd prefer it to be a manual switch I have to phyiscally turn.

The first question is more a problem with the multiplus itself, while the second would apply to any inverter/charger

If I don't get the multiplus, what standalone inverters do people recommend? For a charger I'd probably get a Victron phoenix as those talk to the cerbo still - but they don't make phoenix inverters in 110.
You are on the wrong path, you don’t need any of those features, just a better schematic. Please look into attached schematic; it is a large system showing multiple units and multiple distribution groups, just look at the parts you need, in this case: the bypass breaker.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	2F34DF1B-D28E-4A0B-8222-E91E43FE49F0.jpg
Views:	198
Size:	340.9 KB
ID:	257501  
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.

s/v Jedi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2022, 12:05   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 1,390
Re: Victron multiplus questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
I think "Inverter Only" mode will still use the transfer switch and pass shore power through, but will switch to inverting if shore power is lost. I'll try to remember to test on my own setup when I'm there later today.
Thanks, that would be appreciated!

Jedi, that is an impressive schematic but I'm not exactly sure what's going on there and I don't think it applies to me.
__________________
www.saildivefish.ca
alctel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2022, 12:17   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,207
Re: Victron multiplus questions

As an update, putting my Multiplus into "Inverter Only" from the Cerbo while the boat was on shore power didn't put it into passthrough mode. Instead, it disconnected the AC input (although it still showed voltage on the input, but the status as "disconnected") and started inverting. So it looks like you'd have to do some more complicated work with assistants or the virtual switch function in the Multiplus configuration to disable the charger and still retain passthrough functionality.
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2022, 13:03   #10
always in motion is the future
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 18,858
Re: Victron multiplus questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by alctel View Post
Thanks, that would be appreciated!

Jedi, that is an impressive schematic but I'm not exactly sure what's going on there and I don't think it applies to me.
Pass through only equals bypass.
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.

s/v Jedi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2022, 14:05   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 1,390
Re: Victron multiplus questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
As an update, putting my Multiplus into "Inverter Only" from the Cerbo while the boat was on shore power didn't put it into passthrough mode. Instead, it disconnected the AC input (although it still showed voltage on the input, but the status as "disconnected") and started inverting. So it looks like you'd have to do some more complicated work with assistants or the virtual switch function in the Multiplus configuration to disable the charger and still retain passthrough functionality.
Thanks, I appreciate that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Pass through only equals bypass.
Ohhh, I think I get it - so I'd have a 3 - way connection between the multiplus, shore power and my AC panel, with the multiplus having a breaker in front of it that I could use to isolate it. Is that correct?
__________________
www.saildivefish.ca
alctel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2022, 01:29   #12
always in motion is the future
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 18,858
Re: Victron multiplus questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by alctel View Post
Thanks, I appreciate that!



Ohhh, I think I get it - so I'd have a 3 - way connection between the multiplus, shore power and my AC panel, with the multiplus having a breaker in front of it that I could use to isolate it. Is that correct?
My reference diagram uses 4 busses and selector switches on both input and output side. Here’s a short explanation:

- the input selector switch simply selects shore power or genset power. The output of this switch feeds power to the input bus

- the input bus ties together incoming power with one or more inverter/charger units as well as a bypass breaker.

- the three output busses are universal in use, allowing flexibility for different configurations depending on choice of equipment. When one or more identical Victron Multiplus units are used, bus1 connects to their out1 and bus2 to out2. This means that bus1 is always on and bus2 only on when power is available on the input bus. When two inverter/chargers are used that are not in parallel configuration, then the output from unit1 connects to bus1 and unit2 to bus2.
Bus3 always connects to the bypass breaker. This feeds input power straight to to distribution panel, bypassing inverter/chargers which can even be powered down or disconnected.

- output distribution selector switch(es). Every distribution group has a selector switch for choosing one of the three available output busses. When you create multiple distribution groups, you can spread consumers over the groups strategically, like all port side outlets on group1 and all starboard side outlets on group2. For some installations this will also balance power over multiple inverters.

This diagram allows many advanced configurations. One example is using 50Hz shore power while keeping everything aboard 60Hz or the other way around. This requires two inverter/chargers that work individually (not parallel) with unit1 output to bus1 and unit2 to bus2.
You set the input breaker for unit1 to OFF so that you force it to INVERT mode. It’s output is on output bus1 so on the distribution panel you choose bus1. For inverter/charger 2 you set the input breaker ON but the output breaker(s) to OFF. This unit gets power from shore and starts charging the battery. But with the other unit drawing power for inverting, you actually feed the charge current straight into the inverter, skipping batteries, achieving frequency conversion.

The diagram allows for many different setups and changes without the need to change breaker panels.
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.

s/v Jedi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2022, 07:27   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Vancouver
Boat: Ericson 27
Posts: 521
Re: Victron multiplus questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by alctel View Post
Hi all,

I have a 400AH lifepo4 battery on the way and trying to decide on my charger/inverter setup.

Originally I was going to go with a Victron Multiplus, as it would integrate nicely with my Cerbo GX but I found a couple of things that wouldn't work super great and I have some questions I hope people can answer, namely:

- Apparently, there is no way to turn the unit off and still have it pass through shore power. This is annoying for me, as on my last boat I had the charger off most of the time and just let the batteries cycle with the solar. If I was going out somewhere, I'd turn on the charger in the morning or the night before and so head out with full batteries. Apparently, you can't turn the charger off and have the unit still pass AC through. This seems incredibly annoying, can someone else confirm?

- I have a dual bus system, with relays leading to each bus. They are 'dumb' relays, meant as a backup to the primary charge control system (a victron battery protect and a sterling prolatch R) and in case the canbus malfunctions or something similar. The multiplus doing both charging and inverter over the same set of leads means that I'll have to leave at least one side unprotected (I'd probably connect to the charge bus). The sterling prolatch can apparently handle bi-directional current, unlike the battery protect so that at least would probably work. Does anyone have a way around this? How do other people cope with it?
In my setup, at least, the fact that the multiplus charger is always on isn't that big of a deal. The BMS for my LiFePO4 bank is controlling the whole charge cycle, so in effect, the DC output from the Multiplus is slaved to whatever the battery wants. Now that the batteries are fully charged, my main battery bus is floating at 13.92V with 0A going in/out of the battery. Power consumption is pretty low, so not that big of a deal to me. (Also, the power to my dock isn't metered, so I don't care too much).


The big win with these units is, imho, the power boost/compensation function. When I visit my friends place, they have pretty crappy power run down to their dock. If I pull more than about 10A, the breaker blows. I can dial that into the multiplus and it will never pull more than 10A off shorepower, and both charge the batteries and manage my loads onboard (boosting with battery power if required).


Lastly, I've rebuilt the electrical system on my boat to have two pretty much separate DC busses. Main house bus (with multiplus, LiFePO4, and all my house loads + solar) and the starting bus. The only thing on the starting bus is a lead acid starting battery and the engine. The latter is managed by a DCC charger. I'll always be able to start my engine and get home. If things go really bad, I can patch the solar over to the lead acid to keep it charged up, and get home.
hjohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2022, 10:48   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 1,390
Re: Victron multiplus questions

I've heard that holding lifepo4 at a high level like that is bad for them in the long run, they like to be cycled, hence why I want to not have to have the charger on the whole time.

I have a similar setup but using an AGM instead for the starting battery - why do you have them on seperate negative buses? I was planning to have them all on the same neg bus (but isolated on the positive side using the 3 on/off switch setup)
__________________
www.saildivefish.ca
alctel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2022, 11:04   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Vancouver
Boat: Ericson 27
Posts: 521
Re: Victron multiplus questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by alctel View Post
I've heard that holding lifepo4 at a high level like that is bad for them in the long run, they like to be cycled, hence why I want to not have to have the charger on the whole time.

I have a similar setup but using an AGM instead for the starting battery - why do you have them on seperate negative buses? I was planning to have them all on the same neg bus (but isolated on the positive side using the 3 on/off switch setup)
Holding them at 14.5 (3.625 per cell) would be bad for them long term. My REC sets that for the initial bulk charge, but once the current drops down, it backs the voltage down to 13.9 and lets the battery float there. According to my instrumentation, there is effectively no current flowing in/out of the battery.

Sorry, I do have a common negative bus for my boat, tied together at the engine. This is mostly because the alternator isn’t an isolated ground unit, and it charges the LiFePO4 system. I do not have any kind of switching/jumpering capability between my starter and LiFePO4 system however. More wiring than I really wanted to put in, and the only thing on the starting system is the engine. Since I’m a coastal cruiser in British Columbia, if I notice something wrong with the starter charger, I have more than enough capacity to run the engine to get home.
hjohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Victron Multiplus in Parallel Fuss Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 9 05-10-2017 13:51
Victron Multiplus compact inverter charger keepondancin Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 2 13-08-2013 04:49
Victron Multiplus PC Connection svpresent Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 5 10-11-2010 12:07
Victron MultiPlus vs. MasterVolt Masscombi BlueSovereign Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 15 05-09-2009 19:47

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:07.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.