Victron isolation transformers, ABYC compliance, surveys

[Jammer]

I am planning an upcoming shore power refit.

I'm planning to install a Victron dual-voltage/autodetect isolation transformer and a Victron Multiplus inverter/charger as the front end of my shore power system. My boat is wired for 120V 30A shore power, which I don't intend to change.

Victron isolation transformers are not in compliance with ABYC standards because they lack the safety shield between windings that the standards require. At present there appear to be no ABYC compliant isolation transformers available for purchase in a size suitable for my boat, though they have been available in years past (from Charles Industries) and some vendors have teased upcoming products. When these products were available, they were considerably heavier, considerably louder, and ran considerably hotter than the toroidal designs used by Victron (among others).

The ABYC requirement for a shield between windings has not been adopted outside the USA and some marine electricians and electrical engineers question whether it provides a meaningful improvement in safety.

My questions:

1) Is the ABYC likely to drop the requirement for the shield? If so, when?

2) Does anyone have any actual experience with (U.S.-based) marine surveyors encountering Victron isolation transformers? Was there any concern expressed in the survey regarding the installation?

3) Have any marine surveyors participating here received any guidance from "on high" regarding isolation transformers? What have you been told?

4) Has anyone had any experience with insurance acceptance of a Victron isolation transformer that was mentioned in a survey report?

[Mal Reynolds]

Well, I understand the desire to install things to a Standard, and ABYC is a good one but this is one of two areas I've decided to deviate from the E-11 standards. The other is related to grounding with an aluminum hull.

Here is an isolation transformer that meets the standard for a shield: https://hubbellcdn.com/literature/Wi...ansformers.pdf

In this case I'm not worried about:
- the actual safety of a Victron unit as it meets European standards
- a surveyor calling it out
- a problem with insurance.

But that's me.

[Jammer]

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Mal Reynolds

Here is an isolation transformer that meets the standard for a shield: https://hubbellcdn.com/literature/Wi...ansformers.pdf

FWIW the smallest one is 15 kva, I need 3 kva.

[SailingHarmonie]

Having a boat that was built to ISO standards in the EU, with no thought was given to the ABYC at all, I can say the only comments I have ever gotten from US surveyors were things that I actually WANTED to change. At our last insurance mandated survey, no mention was made of the Victron isolation transformer.

Absolutely nothing prevents you from talking to a surveyor ahead of time and asking how they handle such an issue. Even if you get a gung-ho, inexperienced surveyor who believes there can only be one safe way of doing things, the WORST thing that can happen is you put that survey in your pocket and get another one from a better surveyor to send on the the insurance company.

It is not possible to be 100% compliant with BOTH ABYC and ISO recommendations because there are areas where they conflict. Smart surveyors, and smart insurance underwriters also, understand this and take a pragmatic approach. Of course not everybody in those businesses is smart...

[s/v Jedi]

Just take my “basic” diagram, it’s a no-brainer.

The reason that there is no shield in the Victron is that they have toroidal transformers which simply are superior. The updates from ABYC are overdue but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t take another decade like with RCD breakers.

The Victron transformers are the gold standard and #1 choice, also in the US.

p.s. I would not buy the automatic version. Simply connect a power monitor to the output (cheap on Amazon) and check before closing the input breaker to the Multiplus. I have seen 270V once as well as 80V. Sometimes you can’t tell if it’s supposed to be 110 or 220.

I still use the manual jumpers but plan to install a rotary switch to do this, which I have at hand for years already… one day I will do it but I never even had to change the jumpers since I got the switch.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Just take my “basic” diagram, it’s a no-brainer.

The reason that there is no shield in the Victron is that they have toroidal transformers which simply are superior. The updates from ABYC are overdue but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t take another decade like with RCD breakers.

The Victron transformers are the gold standard and #1 choice, also in the US.

p.s. I would not buy the automatic version. Simply connect a power monitor to the output (cheap on Amazon) and check before closing the input breaker to the Multiplus. I have seen 270V once as well as 80V. Sometimes you can’t tell if it’s supposed to be 110 or 220.

I still use the manual jumpers but plan to install a rotary switch to do this, which I have at hand for years already… one day I will do it but I never even had to change the jumpers since I got the switch.

Jedi,

Just what I need, another damn project on the list...

I do like the idea of the switch to handle the input voltage change. Just saves me the hassle of hunting up those damn cover screws when I drop them in the engine room! I did a fair amount of back and forth on the this past season jumping from French Islands (220V/50Hz) to everyplace else in the Caribbean.

The most screwed up wiring by far was the Marinas in Antigua. They advertise they have 240V power and have the EU style plugs for it, and I wondered how they did that since the island shore supply is 120V/60Hz? What it REALLY is: 250V/60Hz split phase. I wonder how many people have had appliances die from the wrong frequency? Or (potentially far worse for those without isolation transformers) been surprised by a hot neutral? I have seen some older Euro boats with single pole breakers in a 220V system, not a good combination.

The only trouble we have ever had with our isolation transformer was on some of the smaller islands with poorly regulated power. It comes in at 135V/60Hz, the transformer, by design, bumps that up 10% and moves to 220V for our system, and boom!. The voltage is higher than the Multiplus downstream can accept, even at its highest setting, so no usable shore power.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

p.s. I would not buy the automatic version. Simply connect a power monitor to the output (cheap on Amazon) and check before closing the input breaker to the Multiplus. I have seen 270V once as well as 80V. Sometimes you can’t tell if it’s supposed to be 110 or 220.

I wondered about this.


A manual switch would also allow proper overcurrent protection to be switched in on the primary, 15a vs. 30a.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I wondered about this.


A manual switch would also allow proper overcurrent protection to be switched in on the primary, 15a vs. 30a.

That’s not needed: on the primary you use the value for lowest voltage (i.e. 30 or 32A breaker) and kn the secondary you use the exact value for the boat. So for me I get 240V out of the transformer so I have a 15A breaker there and a 30A on the input. Remember, the breaker protects the wiring so inlet wiring must be rated for the 30A while output wiring for my case can be smaller. If you set your boat for 115V then you have 30A breakers each side.

The thing is that the input current is linearly related to output current.

[Jammer]

Needed? Depends how tightly you want to fuse the primary.


Transformer fires due to shorted windings are a thing, and they're scary. You can get a shorted turn in the secondary and the fault current won't be that great. The localized heating leads to insulation breakdown on adjoining turns leading to more shorted turns and the current goes up.


Obviously, you want the overcurrent protection to trip as early in this process as possible, and that's why ideally a dual-voltage primary will have separate overcurrent protection devices for each input voltage.

[Kello]

Well, hmmm !! (Which also happens to be the noise my isolation transformer makes, lol ) It’s probably been 15 years since installing my Charles isolation transformer. At the time the prospect of Caribbean cruising still existed, and somehow a VIP at Charles was so kind as to walk me thru wiring their transformer to a Blue Sea rotary switch (it’s a switch to go from shore power to generator power) so I could switch from US to European power and have shore power in my boat just by turning the switch (60 vs 50 Hz appliances DO matter ).

But to do this I also installed two shore power plugs wired to the switch, one 30A with the appropriate circuit breaker, and a (16A ??) next to it with the appropriate circuit breaker. (A few years ago I accidentally plugged my 30A cord into the 16A, and … why isn’t the power getting thru ??? So I learned that the expensive Marinco 16A “European” plug is the same as the 30 A plug !!! (Sh!t )

Anyway, years ago I took the class to become an ABYC certified Corrosion Technician. The class was like drinking from a fire hose, and the certifying exam was grueling. Most of us passed the exam, four students did not pass (and were rather clueless during the week-long class) … and … ABYC certified those four anyway!! I have numerous other problems with ABYC from my several years of dealing with them professionally, so, IMO, anything ABYC says is not to be taken seriously, if considered at all. What they say/require isn’t usually or intentionally “bad”, it just could sometimes be (much) better.

I don’t know anything about the Victron isolators, but if experienced and knowledgeable members, Jedi for example, approve of it, I say listen to Jedi, not ABYC. As far as what any surveyor would say in his/her report … lol … all they will do is maybe notice your boat has an isolation transformer and check some box on their form that they will submit to some clueless cubicle insurance flunky.

All this “legal” and “safety” mumbo jumbo is a scam to enrich insurance companies and ABYC persons with vested interests in the equipment they require/recommend. If you truly care about your boat and it’s contents, you need to educate yourself and make your own informed decisions. ABYC recommendations are NOT law! They are merely recommendations that can hold up in court when they can prove their recommendation is better than your decision.

[s/v Jedi]

The Victron toroidal transformers have a temperature sensor in the windings.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Kello

All this “legal” and “safety” mumbo jumbo is a scam to enrich insurance companies and ABYC persons with vested interests in the equipment they require/recommend. If you truly care about your boat and it’s contents, you need to educate yourself and make your own informed decisions. ABYC recommendations are NOT law! They are merely recommendations that can hold up in court when they can prove their recommendation is better than your decision.

I think it is more the ABYC is just glacially slow to react to changes.

A shield wired to shorepower ground is a good idea HOWEVER it is impossible for toroidal transformers due to how they are wired. Everything is moving to torodial because they are more efficient, lighter, and cheaper. So now ABYC requirement becomes "perfect is the enemy of good". Boaters would be better suited with a toroidal transformer than no isolation transformer. Instead the ABYC regs drive them away from isolation transformers all together. Nobody benefits. Insurance companies don't benefit, boaters don't benefit, techs don't benefit, electronic companies don't benefit. So it isn't some grand conspiracy just ABYC being glacially slow to react to changes in the industry. In fact today it is impossible to find a non-torodial isolation transformer at anything under 10 kVA which has a grounded shield at all. So it isn't like they are steering consumers towards one brand over another they are just defacto killing the option all together. Nobody wins. However organizations like ABYC are a bit like herding cats so this isn't that uncommon.

Today if you want to follow ABYC standards (and ABYC standards are in general a good thing) for isolation transformers unless you have a megayacht there is no compliant option.

[smac999]

Keep in mind that abyc guide lines. Are a guide lines of best practice. They are not law or code. If you deviant from these guidelines. And ever end up in court for some rare reason . You may be asked why you didn’t follow the best practice guildlines. And you will need a reason why you didn’t. If your answer is “because I’m smarter than the guy who wrote them and know better”. You will probably lose..

Victron is currently the best marine electrical manufacture in the world.

So that is my answer to the judge. You used a product from the best company in the world. You put it in a boat. Which can travel the whole world.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by smac999

Keep in mind that abyc guide lines. Are a guide lines of best practice. They are not law or code. If you deviant from these guidelines. And ever end up in court for some rare reason . You may be asked why you didn’t follow the best practice guildlines. And you will need a reason why you didn’t. If your answer is “because I’m smarter than the guy who wrote them and know better”. You will probably lose..

Victron is currently the best marine electrical manufacture in the world.

So that is my answer to the judge. You used a product from the best company in the world. You put it in a boat. Which can travel the whole world.

Why would you stand before a judge?! You guys come up with crazy fantasies that have nothing to do with reality. You come before a judge because your isolation transformer saved the life of a swimmer? How about the neighbor without an isolation transformer?

Reality is that ABYC documents are written by volunteers; a concept that is dead. I think it is unwise and you are possibly liable when you stick to ancient standards. Just look at the RCD devices which were treated as being of the devil until they finally adopted them and now you must have them. But still not on the dock pedestals
Compliance with world standards is preferable at this point.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Why would you stand before a judge?! You guys come up with crazy fantasies that have nothing to do with reality. You come before a judge because your isolation transformer saved the life of a swimmer? How about the neighbor without an isolation transformer?

Reality is that ABYC documents are written by volunteers; a concept that is dead. I think it is unwise and you are possibly liable when you stick to ancient standards. Just look at the RCD devices which were treated as being of the devil until they finally adopted them and now you must have them. But still not on the dock pedestals
Compliance with world standards is preferable at this point.

I don't know if ABYC requires an RCD / GFCI / ELCI on a dock pedestal, but other standards do at this point in the US. Every marina I've seen re-do power pedestals in the last 5+ years has them.