Using old Volvo Engine loom 14 pairs for 230V possible

[CaptainRivet]

HI all,
is it possible to use an old 100% functioning Volvo 14-pin engine loom (from the MD2030) for 230V?
Its 14pin with each 1mm wire, means cut the old connectors and join 5 wires=5mm2 for phase and null and 4 for earth. Tested the cable and Enough to pull 32A at 230V...
Well i need that for 6,5kw invertes at 230V as main cable to main fuse panel.

trying the whole day to get a 3x6mm 230V boa from one hull to the other but no luck. all cable channels are full till top. When former owner replaced both engines with new overpowered ones they left in both Volvo wire looms.
Well tried to pull the 3x6mm cable through with one old Volvo loom...doesn't work as new and old block each other and apperently there are some S bends in where the cable pipes are interrupted (as i figured with the cablecam). so that big 3x6mm Pyton just goes straight...no chance get it replaced.
Will go to hell for all the bad swearing today

[team karst]

There is almost no electrical design that safely and reliably depends on parallel wires for ampacity increases.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by team karst

There is almost no electrical design that safely and reliably depends on parallel wires for ampacity increases.

If you go from 2,5mm2 to 6mm2 thats exactly what is done, you just add more strands to enlarge the diameter to carry more current.
I do the same just have them running in parallel in seperate wires. Thats what you do if you eg cannot root a 120mm cable you take 2x70sqmm2 ones.
Thats my thinking behind why i could use it.

I know its not standard but is there anything that would forbid to use it that way?

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

If you go from 2,5mm2 to 6mm2 thats exactly what is done, you just add more strands to enlarge the diameter to carry more current.
I do the same just have them running in parallel in seperate wires. Thats what you do if you eg cannot root a 120mm cable you take 2x70sqmm2 ones.
Thats my thinking behind why i could use it.

I know its not standard but is there anything that would forbid to use it that way?

Well if you use two 70mm cables instead of one 120mm one they need to be seperate lugs and fuses.

If you are asking will combining multiple wires into one larger wire physically work well yeah of course. It is against ISO and ABYC standards for a reason though.

[jamhass]

One additional issue is the insulation. The Volvo loom is designed for 12v and may not be suitable for 220v.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by jamhass

One additional issue is the insulation. The Volvo loom is designed for 12v and may not be suitable for 220v.

Yes that exactly is my main concern...
Sadly nothing is written on the wires.

[Jammer]

Running small wires in parallel to carry greater current is considered an unsafe practice because a high-resistance connection to one/some of the conductors causes an overcurrent condition on the remaining conductors. There is also a problem with insulation overheating on wires in the center of the large bundle.


Using wires originally intended for 12 volts that do not have an insulation voltage rating marked on either the individual wire or the sleeve containing them, at 240 volts, is unsafe because of the possibility of insulation breakdown either initially or over time.


I wouldn't do that on my boat.

[CaptainRivet]

@statisticall:
forbidden due to ABYC (why?), allowed under ISO and installed by sailboat manufacturer that way and included in the iso certification of the boat.

ABYC only allows paralleling cable to reduce voltage drop, ISO allows paralleling to split current into 2 wires each with a cable protecting fuse.

Due to Victron (i asked 3 times if i understood that correctly) suggest for the multi 12/3000/120
for ISO norm installation 2x70sqmm2 each cable with a 200A fuse
For US and ABYC norm installation one 400A fuse and then 2x70sqmm2 cable=ABYC
How can Victron recommend that for ABYC, well they said its a ABYC is recommendation which US follows while ISO norm is an official norm used also in court....says all.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Well if you use two 70mm cables instead of one 120mm one they need to be seperate lugs and fuses.

If you are asking will combining multiple wires into one larger wire physically work well yeah of course. It is against ISO and ABYC standards for a reason though.

Thats wrong, ISO allows splitting current into 2 wires but ABYC not.
Best example for that are Victron Inverters, the Multi 12/3000/120 due to manual 2x50sqmm2 or 2x70sqmm2 (longer then 3m), one cable 70sqmm2 cannot handle the 350A, its not to reduce voltage drop
Same the Quattro 12/5000 with 2x120sqmm, one 120sqmm cannot handle the 500A, its not to reduce doltage drop.

forbidden due to ABYC (why?), allowed under ISO and installed by sailboat manufacturer that way and included in the iso certification of the boat.
ABYC only allows paralleling cable to reduce voltage drop, ISO allows paralleling to split current into 2 wires.
Due to Victron recommendation for ISO 2x70sqmm2 with a 200A Fuse for each cable, for ABYC 2x70sqmm2 with one 400A fuse for both cable.
For me ISO much safer, one cable that should carry 1/2 current gets disconnected the 200A fuse blows and disconnects the whole inverter.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Running small wires in parallel to carry greater current is considered an unsafe practice because a high-resistance connection to one/some of the conductors causes an overcurrent condition on the remaining conductors. There is also a problem with insulation overheating on wires in the center of the large bundle.


Using wires originally intended for 12 volts that do not have an insulation voltage rating marked on either the individual wire or the sleeve containing them, at 240 volts, is unsafe because of the possibility of insulation breakdown either initially or over time.


I wouldn't do that on my boat.

Thanks yes that's the issue and makes sense, won't do too.

back to get that 3x6mm2 boa through the cable channel...got a pott vasiline maybe that helps

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by jamhass

One additional issue is the insulation. The Volvo loom is designed for 12v and may not be suitable for 220v.

Indeed!

The primary difference between wires rated for 12VDC, and those rated for 240VAC, would be the insulation quality (rated volts per mil of insulation thickness), and thickness.

Wire insulation generally has two primary ratings: Voltage, and Temperature (also /w environmental, flame propagation, mechanical, chemical resistance, and some other aspects).

FWIW:
The original CAR engine harnesses, that Volvo installed in new 1980 to 1987 Volvo cars, turned out to be defective.

They were all made with a poor plastic wire insulation, that badly deteriorated after being exposed to engine heat.

The insulation on individual wires would get soft and crumble away, eventually leaving exposed wires to short out and cause all kinds of problems with electronic systems. This problem is caused by HEAT attacking the defective insulation over many years of use, and was somewhat accelerated in turbocharged cars due to the higher heat in the engine bay.
This defective insulation problem DID NOT plague pre-1980 Volvos, nor was it found in 1988 and later cars.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

back to get that 3x6mm2 boa through the cable channel...got a pott vasiline maybe that helps

You can buy wire pulling lubricant. Works better, not as messy, doesn't react with rubber, doesn't conduct electricity.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Indeed!

The primary difference between wires rated for 12VDC, and those rated for 240VAC, would be the insulation quality (rated volts per mil of insulation thickness), and thickness.

Wire insulation generally has two primary ratings: Voltage, and Temperature (also /w environmental, flame propagation, mechanical, chemical resistance, and some other aspects).

FWIW:
The original CAR engine harnesses, that Volvo installed in new 1980 to 1987 Volvo cars, turned out to be defective.

They were all made with a poor plastic wire insulation, that badly deteriorated after being exposed to engine heat.

The insulation on individual wires would get soft and crumble away, eventually leaving exposed wires to short out and cause all kinds of problems with electronic systems. This problem is caused by HEAT attacking the defective insulation over many years of use, and was somewhat accelerated in turbocharged cars due to the higher heat in the engine bay.
This defective insulation problem DID NOT plague pre-1980 Volvos, nor was it found in 1988 and later cars.

Thanks, yes thats the real reason. Will try to get that 3x6sqmm boa through...
Heat in engine room really kills cables.

The part i thought of using connects direct after the engine bulkheads to the engine loom with the remote controls at the helm station. Maybe you could call it extension or remote control cable
So heat won't be the issue but isolation quality is the same and the issue here.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Jammer

You can buy wire pulling lubricant. Works better, not as messy, doesn't react with rubber, doesn't conduct electricity.

Well that wasn't the real issue, its that S part in the middle of the boat where the 2 pipes are offset by 10-15cm....what for an idiotic FP setup, you could run the pipe straight, its space but they sticked one pipe from one side, the other from the other side in and they simply didn"t meet exactly in the middle...

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

@statisticall:
ISO allows paralleling to split current into 2 wires each with a cable protecting fuse.

Each protected by a seperate fuse. Not your plan of tying the wires together to make one larger wire. There is no distinction between ABYC and ISO here. Each requires that each conductor be seperately fused.

Due to Victron (i asked 3 times if i understood that correctly) suggest for the multi 12/3000/120
for ISO norm installation 2x70sqmm2 each cable with a 200A fuse

For US and ABYC norm installation one 400A fuse and then 2x70sqmm2 cable=ABYC
How can Victron recommend that for ABYC, well they said its a ABYC is recommendation which US follows while ISO norm is an official norm used also in court....says all.

That is not correct. By ABYC standards each current carrying conductor must be protected by its own fuse. Using a single fuse for a pair of conductors is prohibited. If you are using 2x70mm and 200A is allowed per conductor (by distance & voltage drop requirements) it requires two 200A fuses not one 400A fuse. A single 400A fuse would be dangerous. If one wire is broken or accidentally disconnected the circuit will still function however if you draw >200A but less than 400A the inverter will continue to work there will be no indication of a danger but the wiring wiring safe limit is exceeded and could melt or catch fire.

(The example above is simplified to use the values provides in reality if using multiple conductors in a single conduit/bundle they need to be derated).