Triskel power generation system on Distant Shores III

[Typhoon]

We do this already . We just use our small yanmar engine to turn the Eco-tech alternator and watermaker not the big one . Im trying to figure out whats new with this system ?

I think Triskal Marine may be using Eco-Techs alternator design .

Regards John

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVvBCat9qsw

[MaCro]

I'm going back and watching the videos on DSIII, which keep in mind is hull #1 for Southerly 480, and somewhat of a testbed.

Paul shows it's got a Brunton Varifold 4 bladed folding prop - so no complicated controllable pitch system in this instance.

The Yanmar 4JH80, being ECU controlled, will run at whatever RPM is set by the "throttle" control lever is set to (and potentially by the Integrel controller over J1939 CANbus). The engine load is also reported by the ECU (determined by the amount of fuel required to maintain the RPM), and this is available over J1939 to Integrel. So, they can crank up the alternator to whatever the most efficient load on the engine is, and back it down to avoid overloading the engine - something other regulators just can't do. I don't know if it's implemented or not, but theoretically Integrel could even start the engine as necessary to charge the batteries. This type of electronic control is commonly used in heavy duty truck PTO systems, which use the same J1939 CAN.

[MaCro]

Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine

I think Triskal Marine may be using Eco-Techs alternator design .

Thats a nice looking setup, John. I wasn't familiar with the Eco-tech alternators, but they look very good, with lots of ventilation and substantial heatsinks on the internal rectifier. But that is a major difference - the alternator used on the Integrel system is contained in an external controller box, and this also regulates the output of the alternator not just based on battery voltage, but also on engine load and presumably other factors.

[LoudMusic]

I'm am currently contemplating what to do with regards to my power option on my 43' catamaran.

We have two Volvo 40hp main engines each with approximately a 1500w alternator. We also have a somewhat crusty generator who's specs currently escape me. Personally I'd like to sell the generator, clean up its locker, and relocate the house batteries to that space.

We are definitely adding an arch with another 1400w to our existing 700w of solar. That coupled to 14,400kwh of lithium batteries I can't see a generator being crucial, and occasional main engine (or two) to bulk load the batteries should be a reasonable request on the system.

Surely I'm missing something but I don't know what it is. This seems like a simple system without a generator.

[MaCro]

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

Personally I'd like to sell the generator, clean up its locker, and relocate the house batteries to that space.

It sounds like you've got a very comprehensive system, and could totally live without a generator - depending on how you consume electricity. Every guide always starts with analyzing your usage. Some folks want to run A/C 24x7 in all cabins, others do without A/C entirely.

Honestly it seems like most cats are designed and outfitted for charters where guests expect hotel comfort, so the generator is sized to run all the A/C compressors continuously, and that's really what the generator is intended for. If you use A/C sparingly, then it's just a matter of determining how frequently you can charge your bank. With the big alternators and solar you have, it sounds totally doable.

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by MaCro

It sounds like you've got a very comprehensive system, and could totally live without a generator - depending on how you consume electricity. Every guide always starts with analyzing your usage. Some folks want to run A/C 24x7 in all cabins, others do without A/C entirely.

Honestly it seems like most cats are designed and outfitted for charters where guests expect hotel comfort, so the generator is sized to run all the A/C compressors continuously, and that's really what the generator is intended for. If you use A/C sparingly, then it's just a matter of determining how frequently you can charge your bank. With the big alternators and solar you have, it sounds totally doable.

I'd say that's fairly accurate. I believe the boat was built with two A/C systems, and a third was added by the previous owner. The generator can run two just fine but when I turn on the third we run into power shortage.

The bigger issue without the generator would be the inverter, I think. Fortunately I already have a 2800w inverter on board so can still run up to two A/C units at a time. In reality I think we'd only run one for a couple hours to cool and dehumidify the master cabin before bed. They seem to consume around 1200w each with compressors running.

Maybe I'll see how long I can go without firing up the generator and then decide if it needs to get pulled. I wonder what a used generator is worth ...

[a64pilot]

If you give up on air conditioning and or running an electric dive compressor or something , you can I suspect easily live on 2 KW of Solar. You can always run the motors to recharge in the event of a several days weather front.
I have no idea why you would want such a huge bank though, if nothing else the expense is excessive I believe.

In my opinion if you decide you need to keep the air conditioning, then you need to keep the generator.

OK, I mistook KWH for AH forget the comment on bank size, I no reason why with an LFP bank and 2 KW or Solar you can't live well

[MaCro]

Here's some pics of the Integrel test bench captured from the video.

In the alternator pic, the three red cables on the left side are for the three phases of the stator windings.

In the controller pic, you see those 3 red cables from the alternator connected to be rectified to DC. To the left are the leads to the field winding of the alternator to regulate the output, and other control/data connections (NEMA2000/J1939 supposed) and to the color display.

The test bench also featured Victron Orion 48/12 converters.

This brings up the question of conversion between the 48V "Integral Generator" bank and other DC buses on the boat. Windlasses, winches, and bow/stern thrusters are available in 48V, so that may handle most surge loads.

Since those heavy hitters can be taken care of at 48V, the rest of the house loads are probably 12V. Those Victron 48-12V converters handle 30A continuous output, but are only 87% efficient.

I think I'd prefer a 24V primary bank, so I could run darn near everything off that, except for a small converter & battery for VHF, SSB, and NEMA2K.

Update: The integral website indicates they do provide their own 600W converter/charger to step down to 12/24/36V. Also they reference a separate "house bank" so the integral system would be in addition to that. Obviously that house bank could be minimal in size. Might want to run solar to the lower voltage house bank, since stringing enough panels to charge 48V batteries would be undesirable on a sailboat.

[witzgall]

Here is a more complete video from Nigel explaining the system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfX96IWA6m8

[MaCro]

Awesome! I'm very glad to see a thorough presentation from Nigel Calder. It's amusing and reassuring to hear how he's been trying to break it without success. His "retirement gift to the cruising community," how thoughtful! It feels pretty good to have reasoned out how the system functions with the few details we initially received.

We're still looking for detail on their battery-to-battery chargers to reduce the significant losses inherent in existing DC converters. I noted that he does indicate that a small battery is required for the 12/24V house buses, and this is sensible, to handle surge loads.

Of course, it might also be nice to know when the system will start shipping, and of course the small detail of pricing!

[OceanPlanet]

Hi All,

Ken & Nigel's new system is much more efficient & powerful than any other existing alternators. And the control/regulation system is truly impressive in regards to adjusting charging load to engine rpm to minimize fuel use while charging. We've sent some Lithionics batteries for them to do testing with and looking forward to the results.

We should be able to say much more about these systems after the IBEX show.

[MaCro]

Originally Posted by OceanPlanet

Hi All,

Ken & Nigel's new system is much more efficient & powerful than any other existing alternators. And the control/regulation system is truly impressive in regards to adjusting charging load to engine rpm to minimize fuel use while charging. We've sent some Lithionics batteries for them to do testing with and looking forward to the results.

We should be able to say much more about these systems after the IBEX show.

Thanks Bruce, I'm glad to hear you're working with them! Perhaps you'll be the US Distributor?

I also got a response from Triskel, indicating they'll have more tech info published when they launch officially during the METS trade show in November.

[tanglewood]

If you have your heart set on getting rid of your generator, you can do it today, right? Just remove it and run your main to generator power as needed.


So what's the benefit of what you can do today? Two things, as outlined in the video.



First, lower losses in the alternator, but that is traded off again introduced losses charging yet another battery bank (the 48V bank), then cross charging/powering the boat through a DC/DC converter. It would be interesting to see what the actual gains are across the output power range. I'd be surprised if it's a lot. DC/DC conversion is probably a 15% loss. And keeping the batteries topped off is ?? loss. So the gains are whatever improvement there is from running the alternator at 48V, less 15%. Maybe a 5$ to 10% net improvement? And probably only at high power where there are larger losses in the alternator?


Second, running the engine at a better fuel economy operating point. I think this part will be very engine specific. We are talking about around a 15 hp load for power generation. That's not a lot for an 80hp engine, and is nothing for a larger boat with a 200hp or larger engine. It would be interesting to see this laid out against a real fuel map to see just how much of an improvement there is. I've looked at it on larger engines, and it just doesn't make any difference at all. The efficiency is totally determined by your propulsion load. In fact, most engine manufacturers have limits on how much power you can take off as a belt load, and it's usually in the 10% to 15% range. So you will never move your point on the fuel burn map more than 10%-15%. Also, I get the idea of loading up more when there is no propulsion load, but you can do that today with a big alternator. Now, compare all this to a 6kw to kw gen running balls to the wall powering chargers. It's running at it's max engine efficiency, has a way more efficient generator end running at 230 or 240V, and your only loss is in the charger which is no worse that the DC/DC conversion in the Triskel device. You main running at anchor generating power will never match the efficiency of a generator loaded to mid power and above.



So as I see it, the only reason for one of these devices is if you are hell bent on not having a generator, and you want to maybe tweek up your fuel efficiency generating power by maybe 10%, and you still want to pay a good chunk of the cost of a generator in the price of the Triskel.

[RaymondR]

Appears to be a lot of added complexity for very little gain.

As a live aboard I spend far more time at anchor than either motoring or sailing. Consequently I want the solar and storage system to handle my electrical power usage with as little supplementary charge sources as possible. At the moment this is a 1000w portable genset.

I do tend to the opinion that we need to get out of the 12V DC business and go to higher voltages but without multi voltage systems.

[sv Stella Maris]

[QUOTE=tanglewood

“So as I see it, the only reason for one of these devices is if you are hell bent on not having a generator, [U]and[/U] you want to maybe tweek up your fuel efficiency generating power by maybe 10%, and you still want to pay a good chunk of the cost of a generator in the price of the Triskel.”

...mic drop...😏