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Old 16-03-2023, 23:54   #16
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

Well I did both and integrated the EcoFlow system by connecting it primarily into my shore power system whilst retaining my yachts 2 battery agm 12v system.
The exceptions were feeding my 720w ( 4x180w in series) primary Bimini mounted solar panel bank directly into the EcoFlow and powering my portable compressor fridge/freezer directly from its 12v outlet.
I have a shaded cabin roof mounted 160w panel which remains as the trickle charge to the AGM’s and this is managed by my existing vitron mppt controller.
I also have added a 12 to 24v vitron converter with remote activation switch which can be powered by my engine and delivers around 400w to the EcoFlow when under engine power to cover persistently overcast/rain conditions.
The eco flow delta max unit powers our 240v induction cooktop, 240v 800w electric hws, and a variety of 240v occasional use appliances as well as our 12v compressor fridge freezer.
As it’s portable I remove it and use it both in our truck camper for the same grid independent 240v power supply and when not cruising or camping it performs as my ups at our home.
My view is I now have the best of both worlds and have been able to leave my Honda 2.2eu generator behind balancing the weight of the extra solar panels and retaining total tranquility.
The photo below shows the EcoFlow mounted in a fairly secure and water resistant standard hatch with attached box under my dinette seat.
As it can be entirely monitored, managed and remote controlled by phone app it remains neatly and securely out of the way.
I can swap my primary solar system input simply between the EcoFlow and the agm system giving me serious system redundancy.
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Old 17-03-2023, 00:25   #17
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goeasy123 View Post
After much procrastinating and having similar thoughts about Echoflow...

... I've concluded that if you have Lithium on a boat, until a manufacturer comes up with a system specifically for boats, you have to learn to design and build your own system. Even if a manufacturer came up with an off-the-shelf system the variability of usage scenarios on boats is much greater than for RV's. This would require a manufacturer to offer a complex configurable solution.

.... and while it seems like a daunting task at the beginning it soon becomes apparent that it's not that challenging.

Relating our particular scenario to the OP's (well considered) reservations. I wouldn't go offshore or into remote locations without lead acid somewhere in the system and the ability to run critical systems if any digital control (E.g. BMS) failed. LiFeP04 gives you better charge harvesting and storage capacity and in turn the possibility of running high current application like induction cooking.

For example, with 400Ah of existing lead acid you can buy all the components and 200Ah's of LiFeP04 and get all the benefits for much less than EF, while doubling capacity. You're not worried about support in 10 years, complexity or robustness because no individual component can take down the system and you can carry a small spares inventory to recover from any failure, at least until you get to civilization. With lead acid civilization could be anywhere you could beg, buy or steal a truck battery.

W.r.t. Victron there a cheaper and better suited suppliers of most components. Although there are a few things where Victron is king.

I don't think mixing lead and lithium is better architecture -- it's complex and messy.


However, that is exactly what I came up with when I designed a lithium system for my boat. It solved a number of problems and suited the physical configuration of my electrical system, which anyway had two separate banks.


As to spares and being able to field-repair your system -- I think whether or not you have lead in the system, you should have a complete spare BMS on board, and any other component on which the system depends, just like you do for other systems on board.
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Old 17-03-2023, 01:59   #18
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

I chose to parallel LFP and lead acid after some research.

In practise if the LFP shuts down the lead acid will continue to run all the boats systems without any action on my part.

When not on board, the LFP is isolated so it isn't fully charged or floated by the solar panels, but the lead acid is. Back on board, I use a battery switch to connect the LFP back to the lead acid. There can be a small flow from one to the other, normally see about 6A for a short while.

In use, the LFP does all the work for light domestic use and 80% if a heavy load is applied like the kettle. The lead acid and solar panels making up the difference.

Originally I thought we would need big battery banks, large 2-3kW inverter etc. Now 2 years in, we have modified our usage/equipment and manage with a pure sine wave 1600w inverter quite happily. Big savings in equipment costs here right across the installation.

We do carry a spare 1600w inverter/charger as it's a single point of failure for electric cooking. Yes we have gas as well, but the spare inverter/charger is 10 minutes work to wire in.

The spare Victron 100/20 MPPT whilst not as big as the main 100/50, again means another single point of failure isn't going to be an issue for us.


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Old 17-03-2023, 07:47   #19
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grith View Post
Well I did both and integrated the EcoFlow system by connecting it primarily into my shore power system whilst retaining my yachts 2 battery agm 12v system.

...

I can swap my primary solar system input simply between the EcoFlow and the agm system giving me serious system redundancy.

Just be clear - you're using the Delta portable solution correct? I believe the OP that started the thread was discussing the power hub.

I can definitely see the utility of the portable solution with a small boat/RV.
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Old 17-03-2023, 09:16   #20
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

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Originally Posted by pietvdiemen View Post
I would also assume that a severe individual failure would knock out the whole system.
It all comes down to how you design the system. I built and run a fully integrated LiFePO4 system on my boat, with a lot of victron blue. In every conceivable failure mode, including bms failure, I can at the very least limp home.

If the REC BMS fails, I can use the mechanical override on the contactor and monitor the battery manually.

If the Cerbo fails, all my charging sources default to a safe 13.2v charge point.

If one of my MPPTs fail, no big deal.

And so on and so forth. The only true single points of failure are mechanical or passive electrical bits that are very unlikely to fail.
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Old 17-03-2023, 10:02   #21
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

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Originally Posted by shimari View Post
Just be clear - you're using the Delta portable solution correct? I believe the OP that started the thread was discussing the power hub.

I can definitely see the utility of the portable solution with a small boat/RV.
Ya power kits is completely different. I think their Delta series is actually perfect for boats as itís an easy way to add lithium without insurance issues, add MPPT, and and an inverter. Redundancy is a further plus. I have a Delta Pro and their Wave air conditioner and love them.
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Old 17-03-2023, 11:02   #22
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

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Originally Posted by hjohnson View Post
It all comes down to how you design the system. I built and run a fully integrated LiFePO4 system on my boat, with a lot of victron blue. In every conceivable failure mode, including bms failure, I can at the very least limp home.

If the REC BMS fails, I can use the mechanical override on the contactor and monitor the battery manually.

If the Cerbo fails, all my charging sources default to a safe 13.2v charge point.

If one of my MPPTs fail, no big deal.

And so on and so forth. The only true single points of failure are mechanical or passive electrical bits that are very unlikely to fail.
All correct. But please remember what I wrote after the part you cited: my idea to limp home is to switch to a (small) conventional 12 V lead-acid battery (which is fully charged but not in the circuit normally). If that fails or runs out, there is another conventional 12 V motor battery. -- On a bigger boat one could buy two sets (hub with two batteries) and just switch to the other set. It's maybe like with computers, in earlier times you replaced or updated single components but nowadays you just buy a new laptop (or phone or raspberry) if it fails. Ok with the exception of the Framework laptop maybe.

[Edit: one big questions for me would be how likely is a failure. My assumption is/was that, after some more maturing, it just works. If this is not the case, hmm, not good]

-- What Pete7 wrote is interesting. I read about it, but I'm not sure I would dare to mix LFPO4 and SLA batteries. And in addition I'm very wary of the big currents when e.g. drawing 1600 W from a 12 V source.
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Old 17-03-2023, 11:09   #23
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shimari View Post
Just be clear - you're using the Delta portable solution correct? I believe the OP that started the thread was discussing the power hub.

I can definitely see the utility of the portable solution with a small boat/RV.
Yes, I meant the (stationary) EcoFlow Power Kit. This was installed on a wall on their booth in Dusseldorf and I brought home a prospectus with "Marine" on it.

They also had many portable Power Stations. Maybe that's also in the scope of my question? It's just even more integrated and we are down to granularity one single part to replace. Initially I thought that the "Marine EcoFlow Power Kit" would be more marine-worthy, but maybe this is not so. Not sure atm.
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Old 17-03-2023, 11:52   #24
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

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Originally Posted by hjohnson View Post
..
PS: sorry, I forgot to thank for your illustrative post, very appreciated! Do you by chance have an illustration somewhere about what you did exactly?
Cheers, to Vancouver
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Old 17-03-2023, 12:00   #25
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

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Originally Posted by pietvdiemen View Post
Yes, I meant the (stationary) EcoFlow Power Kit. This was installed on a wall on their booth in Dusseldorf and I brought home a prospectus with "Marine" on it.

They also had many portable Power Stations. Maybe that's also in the scope of my question? It's just even more integrated and we are down to granularity one single part to replace. Initially I thought that the "Marine EcoFlow Power Kit" would be more marine-worthy, but maybe this is not so. Not sure atm.
I talked to their engineers before this product was launched and they thought about pushing it in the marine segment but ultimate decided itís probably not the best. Itís really big for a sailboat, maybe in a powerboat with a larger engine room it would work better. Their portable ones are great for sailboats imo. Works very well for expanding the bank.
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Old 17-03-2023, 13:31   #26
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

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Originally Posted by shimari View Post
Just be clear - you're using the Delta portable solution correct? I believe the OP that started the thread was discussing the power hub.

I can definitely see the utility of the portable solution with a small boat/RV.
Yes correct I have fitted the Delta Max 2000 portable unit not the EcoFlow power kit.
My unusual trailerable low draft 28foot cruising yacht is being fitted for a 3 month no resupply remote area exploration cruise for two and this unit looks like being able to allow me to leave my generator ( and itís required additional fuel ) behind despite being about to fit a water-maker.
Partially for redundancy and part for capacity and multiple charging ability I actually just picked up a second unit being ecoflowís Delta Max 1600.
It was exceptionally cheap and whilst smaller in storage capacity and life it is close to identical in weight, look and size to my Delta Max 2000 and I have installed this one under the directly opposite settee berth using the same priority hatch and box which have proved such a perfect fit.
This should also allow me the extra capacity to recharge my torqeedo outboard batteries.
The torqeedo is used both as a fuel saving auxiliary (in low wind conditions) to my yachts main large outboard and for the dingy.
Being able to go electric for main engine propulsion is a dream still some time off in my view but I am watching developments in particularly battery technology with interest. ( It would be great to be able to leave behind my really huge petrol capacity and storage for the large outboard at some future time. )
Shot of my yacht below. Perhaps not the prettiest with its high freeboard and large solar array but a very versatile and functional coastal and inland waters expedition sailing platform for up to four that is completely trailerable.
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Old 19-03-2023, 01:29   #27
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Re: Throw Victron out--move EF Power Kit in?

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Originally Posted by pietvdiemen View Post
-- What Pete7 wrote is interesting. I read about it, but I'm not sure I would dare to mix LFPO4 and SLA batteries. And in addition I'm very wary of the big currents when e.g. drawing 1600 W from a 12 V source.
Thanks However, if any of those portable storage devices are capable of boiling a kettle from the on board battery, then they probably have a similar inverter inside.

What you don't know is if they are high quality pure sine wave inverter inside or how big the wires really are to take that sort of load. Whilst a system build around separate components can be spec'd to meet the needs. Spent the winter changing from 25mm wire up to 35mm (approx 4AWG to 2AWG). Only short runs but a new hydraulic crimper gives a better finish.

Just watched Will Prowse on YT testing a Victron 12v 1200VA PSW inverter, so not even a 1200w, for over 10 hours drawing 1kW. Inverter didn't even get warm according to Will.

We happily cook on a 1600w inverter and am considering using it to heat water with a 1kW calorifier heating element.

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