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Old 03-03-2023, 07:42   #46
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

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Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound View Post
For the most part Lipo, or Lithium-polymer batteries are not used a lot on boats, unless its in hand held devices, or other small appliances.
My rule of thumb is I'll only bring a lipo battery onboard if it's small enough to throw overboard. The largest I have is for my ebike. It weighs 10 pounds, and remove it from to be bike when I store it onboard.
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Old 03-03-2023, 08:04   #47
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

I have used LifePo4 battery in my boat 5 years. No problem. They have 150A BMS and charges from ice-alternator and 220V AC.
My ice-start battery are dry-acid.
You have to securly maintain and monitoring all type of batteries.
All type of batteries can take fire or sometimes explode.
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Old 03-03-2023, 08:10   #48
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

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Originally Posted by ColinIOM View Post
Already a Norwegian ferry company has banned all EV’s including hybrid vehicles and I think thats just the start because fire fighting these is a big problem. In a video I found it said fire fighters took 36 hours to extinguish an electric car fire!

Norwegian Ferry company bans all Electric Vehicles including Hybrid.
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/n...ps-208942.html
There is more to the story than just the EV cars, they actually don't take any cars, as they forgot to plan in for tides in the harbours along the Norwegian coast.
The competing, and the long time running (~130 years), coastal liner/ferry company Hurtigruten has no issues with any EV vehicles, and you can embark/disembark at any port they stop at, assuming there is space.

Don't believe all that is written ...
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Old 03-03-2023, 08:46   #49
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

There is a related article in the Feb/Mar 2023 BoatUS magazine. It has an article discussing the safety of Lithium batteries (Ready for a Lithium-Ion Battery? and a side bar Considerations for the Li-Ion Consumer). No known issues with properly installed and maintained LiFePO4 batteries catching fire. AYBC has added several paragraphs relating to their use that you should familiarize yourself with if interested in using them.
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Old 03-03-2023, 08:56   #50
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

The OP is uninformed regarding the technology. LiFePo Is the only big battery form you should consider for a boat. All others are capable of catastrophic failure, fire. Until recently, ABYC and the insurance industry has been equally uninformed. You should be highly critical of any other big lithium batteries, unknown chemistry, that you bring aboard.
E bikes
E outboards
Segway
Hover board
E surfboard
E dive pod
E hookah

Small appliances such as cell phones, IPAD cameras have batteries small enough to be tolerated but, not without hazard. A Lufthansa flight just recently had a fire in an overhead bin caused by lithium batteries.


This is a highly informative link. https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/ There are many hot links in here to amuse and educate you for days.



The following from my supplier of our LiFePo batteries:

In the press they lump all lithium batteries together.* There are really three broad types of lithium batteries, each with different risk factors.* All of them have a combustible electrolyte that is a petroleum derivative.* But, the volume of the electrolyte is small – about a quart in one of your batteries.* All of ours are lithium iron phosphate; none of ours are the more combustible and explosive lithium-cobalt, nor the nearly as combustible and explosive lithium manganese oxide.
*
LiFePO4 is a rechargeable battery chemistry, is the lowest risk factor lithium battery chemistry, and for that reason is the only chemistry we use.* It is hard to ignite, requires a very high temperature to cause vaporizing and release of its electrolyte (nearly 500F).* In a LiFePO4 battery, 3% of the weight of the battery is in the electrolyte – so only about 2 lbs in one of your 210Ah batteries, or 1 qt; and half that in one of our 105Ah batteries.* It is not a large volume of combustible material.* Note the recent letter (excerpt from the September 2022 letter from the President of the ABYC on the results of their testing on the flammability, ignitibility and explosion potential of LiFePO4 batteries).* In short they couldn’t get them to self-ignite or explode, and when placed in a fire, contributed only a small amount to the fuel in the fire.* Our batteries are subjected to tests to try to ignite them, such as firing a rod through the batteries, direct short circuits, etc., with no ignition or explosion.* ABYC confirmed the results of these qualifying tests.
*
Another lithium type battery is a high energy density version (a lot of power in a small package) that is a high fire and explosion risk, and that is the Lithium-Cobalt (LiCoO2), or lithium cobalt dioxide; a notable feature is the chemistry, with the oxygen in this case in a weak bond that is easily released at higher temperatures (unlike the strong bond of the oxygen in the Phosphate blend in LiFePO4).* If one had a run-away charger that overcharged the batteries, and did not have an active BMS to terminate the charge current, the battery would become overheated, the weakly bonded oxygen would be released and cause swelling of the pack, pushing battery plates together with resulting shrt circuit and sparks, igniting the electrolyte, and resulting in an explosion.* Li-Cobalt batteries are used widely in computers, cell phones, and any device desiring lots of power in a very small package.* Many of these have reached the news, such as fires in computers, cell phones, Hoverboards, FitBit watches, e-Bikes, Boeing’s Dreamliner 787, and the early Model-S Tesla’s.* Lab tests have confirmed these actual event scenarios, so the risk is well known and understood. *Occasionally some boat manufacturers pack a lot of LiCoO2 batteries into a boat to get it to plane or move at a relatively high speed under electric power.* A runaway charger not only starts a fire, it can be a large fire with the larger volume of electrolyte, and igniting the much larger volume (tons) of vinyl ester or polyester resins in the vessel hull.
*
The third type of lithium battery are several lithium chemistries that do not support recharging.* These are single use batteries used in small devices, like security systems, motion sensors, pacemakers, small remote controls.* They are called lithium-metal batteries or primary batteries. Often just a button-sized (small disc) battery.* If heated excessively, like thrown in a fire or consumed in a fire, they explode.* They also are susceptible to explosion from faulty charging devices, but because they are so small, it is not usually a large or all-consuming fire.

So our LiFePO4 batteries are not the chemistry that you hear about as a fire hazard.* But, because of their small electrolyte inventory they are treated as hazardous material.*

Ours are similar to Victron, Mastervolt, Relion, Battleborn, Renogy and Lithionics batteries from a chemistry standpoint – all are LiFePO4.* Our lithium batteries differ from many others in that ours, like Victron and Mastervolt, are made with longer-lasting prismatic cells that standup better to deep cycle use.* And different from most others we have Bluetooth access to battery information, have a more robust BMS monitoring 52 parameters, conduct extensive testing and cell balancing before delivery, and provide ready technical support.
*
Hope that helps.* I know more detailed than you may have wanted.* But, it gives you the background to have more confidence to make a summary response to someone who asks.
————-

White Paper 1(2) Public
Sales 2020-12-09
Comparison of Lithium-ion batteries
For rechargeable batteries, energy density, safety, charge and discharge performance, efficiency, life cycle, cost and maintenance issues are the points of interest when comparing different technologies. There are many types of lithium-ion batteries differed by their chemistries in active materials. Here, a brief comparison is summarized for some of the variants. Battery chemistries are identified in abbreviated letters, such as:
· Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) — LFP
· Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) — NMC
· Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum (LiNiCoAlO2) — NCA
· Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) — LMO
· Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2) — LCO
LFP consists of phosphate in the cathode material. It offers higher thermal stability but moderate specific energy and a lower nominal voltage than some other types of Li-ion batteries. The key benefits are high current rating and long cycle life, as well as enhanced safety and tolerance if abused. The cost of LFP is lowest among different types of Li-ion batteries.
NMC consists of different portions of each of nickel, manganese and cobalt in the cathode material. The advantage of NMC are that its structure can be adapted to the purpose of use, for example to obtain high capacity or high specific power. In addition, it has higher energy density compared to other variants, such as LFP and LMO. However, its thermal stability is poor compared to LFP.
NCA is a development of lithium-nickel oxide, with added aluminum to increase stability. The specific energy density for NCA is similar or even higher than NMC. The battery is mostly used for high energy applications such as electric vehicles. Disadvantages are the safety and cost.
LMO consists manganese oxide in the cathode material. The structure of the cell provides low internal resistance, and thereby fast charging time, as well as thermal stability. The disadvantage of the LMO is that it has both a shorter lifespan and a shorter cycling life.
LCO consists of a cobalt oxide cathode. It offers a high specific energy. The drawback of LCO is a relatively short life span, low thermal stability and limited specific power.
Print date: 2020-12-09 Template: 403FIAR0101 C.01

White Paper 2(2) Public
Sales 2020-12-09
There are some other types of Li-ion batteries not mentioned here, such as Lithium Titanate (LTO) and Li-polymer batteries. The Li-ion battery technology is continuously developed for achieving higher specific energy and specific power, such as lithium-metal and solid state lithium batteries.
Some main features of different Li-ion battery technologies are compared in figure 1. The energy density for different types of batteries are also illustrated.
Figure 1. Snapshot and energy density for different types of batteries.
Currently, the most common Li-ion batteries in telecom applications are LFP, NMC and NCA. Some of their characteristics are summarized in the following table. Lead-acid is also compared since it’s the conventional technology in telecom applications today.
Wh/kg
300 250 200 150 100
50 0
Energy density comparison
Lead-acid
LFP LMO
LCO NMC NCA
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Old 03-03-2023, 08:59   #51
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

Having been on a couple of these boats… @Kilkern is right. They definitely don´t carry EV´s, because they are passenger ferries and do not carry cars!
Nearly 90% of all new vehicles sold in Norway are either fully electric or Hybrid… I live here, and take ferries often. The idea that EV´s would be banned is laughable.
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Old 03-03-2023, 09:02   #52
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
First hand experience?
Experienced with both hands! I can be ambidextrous when opening my med bottles [or my beer, wine or liquor bottles].
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Old 03-03-2023, 09:09   #53
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

[QUOTE=Nicholson58;3750430]The OP is uninformed regarding the technology. LiFePo Is the only big battery form you should consider for a boat. All others are capable of catastrophic failure, fire. Until recently, ABYC and the insurance industry has been equally uninformed. You should be highly critical of any other big lithium batteries, unknown chemistry, that you bring aboard.
E bikes
E outboards
Segway
Hover board
E surfboard
E dive pod
E hookah

Small appliances such as cell phones, IPAD cameras have batteries small enough to be tolerated but, not without hazard. A Lufthansa flight just recently had a fire in an overhead bin caused by lithium batteries.




I would add portable power tools to the list of common hazardous batteries.

https://worksafe.nt.gov.au/forms-and...-the-workplace

Managing the risks
To manage the risks associated with Lithium-ion batteries, you should:

Do ensure batteries are stored within the temperature range recommended by the manufacturer and away from flammable materials;
Don’t expose the battery packs to heat or place in direct sunlight, or leave them in hot vehicles for extended periods;
Do charge batteries using only a charger recommended by the manufacturer;
Don’t charge batteries on flammable surfaces (such as wood, carpet, material, paper, plastics);
Don’t leave batteries unattended when charging;
Store and/or transport batteries in a non-flammable container;
Regularly check the condition of the battery;
Do not use batteries that are damaged or swollen;
Discontinue the charging process and immediately disconnect the battery if you witness a battery changing shape, starting to balloon, swell up, smoke or become extremely hot; and
Do refer to the battery manufactures safe work practices and Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) before use.


Warning signs - what to look for
Heat: It’s completely normal for batteries to generate some heat when charging or in use. But if your device’s lithium-ion battery feels extremely hot to the touch, there’s a good chance it’s defective and at risk of starting a fire.

Swelling: When a lithium battery fails, another common sign is battery swelling. If the shape of your battery has changed, or it looks swollen, you should stop using it immediately. Similar signs include any type of lump or bulge, or leakage from the device.

Noise: Failing lithium batteries have also been reported to make hissing or cracking sounds.

Odour:If you notice a strong or unusual odour coming from the battery, this is also a bad sign.

Smoke: This one’s a little more obvious. But if your device is smoking, a fire has already started.
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Old 03-03-2023, 09:14   #54
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

Been there, seen similar to this:



https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/of...es/vi-AA17cIEi
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Old 03-03-2023, 09:23   #55
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

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Originally Posted by LWatson View Post
Do you think there is any correlation to the recent spate of new car carrying ships and the EVs inside? Thought not
Reference Link:

https://gcaptain.com/electric-vehicl...ds-identified/
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Old 03-03-2023, 10:30   #56
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

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Seriously though, the risks from electric cars is tiny. Where do people get this crap from?

Oil & Gas industry propaganda. Fear mongering is very effective.
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Old 03-03-2023, 14:23   #57
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Colin, what sort of batteries are you using on your boat? not those dangerous exploding lead acid batteries are they
Which brings up a point overlooked by many: All large storage batteries, no matter what the chemistry are storing large amounts of energy.

How much one may ask? Our set of 4 FLA Trojan 105's fully charged store approximately 5 KWH of energy. This is enough energy (200 KJ) to melt at white heat 1 Kg of solid copper. Emergency arc welding can be done with a 12V car battery (please don't try this!) This is the reason for so much care being required to safely install and use large battery systems, no matter the chemistry.

Every year many vehicles, cars, trucks and boats are destroyed in fires. Electrical fires are the most common cause of fires in boats. People are burned, blinded, and killed from exploding batteries of all types.

Personally, I am sticking with tried and true properly cabled and fused FLA chemistry, concentrating on efficiency, simplicity, and safety until more votes get counted. I sleep soundly not worrying about my batteries spontaneously combusting out in the middle of Lake Michigan. Just a cautious old fart who knows what he knows...
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Old 03-03-2023, 14:55   #58
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

Totally different chemistry. Li Ion is used in automobiles because they need large power draws to accelerate from 0-60 mph in under 3 seconds if that’s what you want to do..on your boat you don’t have that need so LiFe P04 has a lower discharge rate but can be deep cycled many many times for your steady power draws on your boat or power wall in your house.
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Old 03-03-2023, 14:56   #59
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

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Originally Posted by Boatwright View Post
. I sleep soundly not worrying about my batteries spontaneously combusting out in the middle of Lake Michigan. Just a cautious old fart who knows what he knows...
Who if he thinks lifepo4 spontaneously combusts, doesn't know much
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Old 03-03-2023, 16:48   #60
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Re: The Dangers of Lipo Batteries

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Originally Posted by Boatwright View Post
Which brings up a point overlooked by many: All large storage batteries, no matter what the chemistry are storing large amounts of energy.

How much one may ask? Our set of 4 FLA Trojan 105's fully charged store approximately 5 KWH of energy. This is enough energy (200 KJ) to melt at white heat 1 Kg of solid copper. Emergency arc welding can be done with a 12V car battery (please don't try this!) This is the reason for so much care being required to safely install and use large battery systems, no matter the chemistry.

Every year many vehicles, cars, trucks and boats are destroyed in fires. Electrical fires are the most common cause of fires in boats. People are burned, blinded, and killed from exploding batteries of all types.

Personally, I am sticking with tried and true properly cabled and fused FLA chemistry, concentrating on efficiency, simplicity, and safety until more votes get counted. I sleep soundly not worrying about my batteries spontaneously combusting out in the middle of Lake Michigan. Just a cautious old fart who knows what he knows...

Good choice, it seems from all the incidents that lithium batteries are very dangerous and best avoided.
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