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06-12-2024, 12:13
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#31
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 13,086
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkabout08
First lifepo is anything but simple. That being said you need to rethink using lithium for engine starting. Get an AGM starting battery and a dc-dc charger. Charge your lithium from the engine alternator, get a quality external regulator and an alternator protection device. Be sure your smart regulator can be setup to limit the power charge to the lithium which along with a temperature monitor and the APD will help keep your alternator from self destructing. With lithium a BMS is essential. Victron also makes a battery protection unit, you’ll want two, one for the lithium and one for your AGM. Good luck!
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Ok here it is in the simplest terms.
From Rod Collins
This is about as simple as can be and kiss because it eliminates the maintance of watering the lead batteries as well as the PSOC issue.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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16-12-2024, 18:19
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Montreal
Boat: Dufour 39 Frers
Posts: 416
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul
Ok here it is in the simplest terms.
From Rod Collins
This is about as simple as can be and kiss because it eliminates the maintance of watering the lead batteries as well as the PSOC issue.
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Wrong: Start battery still needs to be waterred from time to time!
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16-12-2024, 18:50
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#33
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 13,086
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emouchet
Wrong: Start battery still needs to be waterred from time to time!
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Sorry to tell you but I am not incorrect. Perhaps you didn't ever hear of a maintenance free battery needs nothing but charging occasionally
Or AGM which don't need watering at all .
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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17-12-2024, 00:27
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Location: puɐןsuǝǝnb 'ʎɐʞɔɐɯ
Boat: Currawong 30
Posts: 4,897
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
My latest boat, near 50 yo and ridden hard and put away wet, is about as KISS as it gets. It has a FLA starter battery fitted with a battery post isolator connected directly to the engine and to position two of a 2 bank combiner switch for emergency use purposes. It has two aging 100AH AGM's wired in parallel connected as bank one. The charging circuit is an mppt solar charger connected directly to The AGM's and a DC-DC charger connected between the starting and AGM batteries. To swap the AGM's for LFP (of the built in BMS variety) will just require the DC-DC charger to be optionally upgraded to a lithium compatible model (about $100 for a half decent decent cheapie on Ebay).
The starter battery post isolator stops parasitic discharge when on the mooring and a 10w solar panel connected directly to it's terminals and thrown on deck compensates for self discharge.
Works very well and the only additional component is really just the DC-DC charger.
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17-12-2024, 08:01
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#35
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 13,086
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet
My latest boat, near 50 yo and ridden hard and put away wet, is about as KISS as it gets. It has a FLA starter battery fitted with a battery post isolator connected directly to the engine and to position two of a 2 bank combiner switch for emergency use purposes. It has two aging 100AH AGM's wired in parallel connected as bank one. The charging circuit is an mppt solar charger connected directly to The AGM's and a DC-DC charger connected between the starting and AGM batteries. To swap the AGM's for LFP (of the built in BMS variety) will just require the DC-DC charger to be optionally upgraded to a lithium compatible model (about $100 for a half decent decent cheapie on Ebay).
The starter battery post isolator stops parasitic discharge when on the mooring and a 10w solar panel connected directly to it's terminals and thrown on deck compensates for self discharge.
Works very well and the only additional component is really just the DC-DC charger.
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Are you sure the dc2dc isn't adjustable? If it is just change settings to lifepo4.
But yes your bank is easy to convert just need lifepo4 dc2dc settings and set your mppt to the appropriate charge profile.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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17-12-2024, 16:22
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Location: puɐןsuǝǝnb 'ʎɐʞɔɐɯ
Boat: Currawong 30
Posts: 4,897
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul
Are you sure the dc2dc isn't adjustable? If it is just change settings to lifepo4.
But yes your bank is easy to convert just need lifepo4 dc2dc settings and set your mppt to the appropriate charge profile.
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No, because I took advantage of the fact that there are a zillion DC-DC chargers available on FB marketplace for peanuts because people are converting to lithium and swapping them out. It's going into my car to replace a useless VSR when I'm done with it in the boat.
Having said that, I do have a home made lithium battery as shown in the image (the ultimate KISS  ) that I use for camping that has only ever been charged using AGM mode on a mains, DC-DC or solar and it hasn't exploded on me yet!
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17-12-2024, 18:04
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#37
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 13,086
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet
No, because I took advantage of the fact that there are a zillion DC-DC chargers available on FB marketplace for peanuts because people are converting to lithium and swapping them out. It's going into my car to replace a useless VSR when I'm done with it in the boat.
Having said that, I do have a home made lithium battery as shown in the image (the ultimate KISS  ) that I use for camping that has only ever been charged using AGM mode on a mains, DC-DC or solar and it hasn't exploded on me yet!
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Actually the absorption points are fine on all lead based charge points it's the length of absorption that is the issue iirc
And no float needed .
And victron even states in its centaur manual that for lifepo4 use its gel cell setting for charging.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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18-12-2024, 17:12
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#38
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 94
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
This seems pretty simple, but not lithium
Or a boat, so the circuits of course use chassis ground return.
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18-12-2024, 18:45
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#39
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 94
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Mostly just a basic primer on lithium, but towards the end, a new regulatory standard (ANZ 31.2) for systems connectable to the mains (as when using shore power, I assume) is discussed, which seems to require them to be sealed off and separately vented from the habitable space.
Seems quite onerous, and would involve me in quite a lot of extra work
AFAICT only applicable recently in ANZ only, but that kind of thing tends to spread.
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18-12-2024, 19:15
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#40
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 13,086
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Quote:
Originally Posted by edlithgow
Mostly just a basic primer on lithium, but towards the end, a new regulatory standard (ANZ 31.2) for systems connectable to the mains (as when using shore power, I assume) is discussed, which seems to require them to be sealed off and separately vented from the habitable space.
Seems quite onerous, and would involve me in quite a lot of extra work
AFAICT only applicable recently in ANZ only, but that kind of thing tends to spread.
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Yes Australia as he says nanny state.
https://teambmpro.com/lithium-batter...-nz3001-22002/
The guidelines that don't apply to standard lead batteries that produce potentially deadly gasses when being properly charged.
It's like the people that wrote the regulations don't know anything about lifepo4 batteries but most is just good practice with any batteries you install.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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19-12-2024, 06:55
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2023
Posts: 2,148
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul
The guidelines that don't apply to standard lead batteries that produce potentially deadly gasses when being properly charged.
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What gases might those be, exactly?
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19-12-2024, 07:17
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2023
Location: Cruising
Posts: 567
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
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19-12-2024, 07:50
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#43
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 13,086
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie
What gases might those be, exactly?
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For starters hydrogen gas as well as oxygen creating an explosion rich environment in the battery room. Not to mention hydrogen sulphide which is that rotten egg smell you just noticed. Which iirc is deadly when concentration is above 10 ppm .
Lifepo4 do not off gas at all in normal use .
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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20-12-2024, 14:12
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 94
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul
Yes Australia as he says nanny state.
https://teambmpro.com/lithium-batter...-nz3001-22002/
The guidelines that don't apply to standard lead batteries that produce potentially deadly gasses when being properly charged.
It's like the people that wrote the regulations don't know anything about lifepo4 batteries but most is just good practice with any batteries you install.
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Dunno. If you applied this rule to lead acid its not clear to me that a relatively small space separate (but not very far away in a small boat) from the accomodation in which hydrogen, if present, might more easily achieve an explosive concentration, is going to necessarily be safer than a less enclosed space where concentrations, blast overpressures and lateral fragmentation effect will all tend to be lower.
I suppose it might be if its got fairly hefty spark proof extractor fan, but thats a bit of extra complication, might even need a lithium battery to power it, and if its in say a cockpit locker, the obvious place for this battery box, I'm not clear offhand how I would protect it from the sea.
I suppose with lithium the likely hazards are toxicity (and fire?) where separation/containment might make more obvious sense.
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20-12-2024, 14:46
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#45
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 13,086
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Re: Switching to lithium on a KISS boat
Quote:
Originally Posted by edlithgow
Dunno. If you applied this rule to lead acid its not clear to me that a relatively small space separate (but not very far away in a small boat) from the accomodation in which hydrogen, if present, might more easily achieve an explosive concentration, is going to necessarily be safer than a less enclosed space where concentrations, blast overpressures and lateral fragmentation effect will all tend to be lower.
I suppose it might be if its got fairly hefty spark proof extractor fan, but thats a bit of extra complication, might even need a lithium battery to power it, and if its in say a cockpit locker, the obvious place for this battery box, I'm not clear offhand how I would protect it from the sea.
I suppose with lithium the likely hazards are toxicity (and fire?) where separation/containment might make more obvious sense.
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Actually with lifepo4 the issue is dust the possibility of something dropping across the posts and shorting it out causing a wire to catch fire . Otherwise lifepo4 is one of the safest battery chemistries that I know of .
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Non illigitamus carborundum
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