Starting seems to put huge drain on battery? Won't crank...

[Spring-Fever]

Any advice welcome. Catalina-30 1984, M25 Engine.

Two brand new batteries, 1000am starter and a deep-cycle. Brand new 20amp trickle charger. New Alternator last Fall. New Starter last Fall.


Symptom: Turn the key, and see the instruments/meter dim A GREAT DEAL (even on two fully charged batteries.) I started and restarted a few times to test, and sure enough, the batteries are drained after about 4-5 restarts. (I did this as a test after motor would not start after a 3-hour cruise, even though motor was running most of the time. On the cruise, I went to start it and the lights dimmed, but there was not enough juice to turn/crank the engine at all.) So when I got back, I recharged it with shore power, and did the 4 start test mention above.

This has happened many times. On occasion, I have waited a few minutes, and sometimes the engine will turn. But only sometimes.

Is it the Starter? Or perhaps the starter wires?


(The alternator is generating 14 volts when the engine is running, based on my battery meter on board, so that appears to be working.)

How do you "test" a starter?


Before I lead you down the Starter path - could it be something else?

[pesarsten]

Sound likely that you have a problem in your starter. It would be very helpful if you could measure the amps being drawn by the starter when cranking. But first why not put a load tester on the batteries. New does not necessarily mean good.

[Sailmonkey]

Sounds more like weak batteries to me

[C420sailor]

Voltage at the start battery while running?

[skipperpete]

It would be very useful to rotate the engine manually using a bar and socket.
This would determine whether the engine was unusually tight to rotate due to internal friction or hydro locking.

[Stu Jackson]

OK, I have an M25 on a boat only two years newer than yours. I have been active in our C34 association for the past 20+ years and know something about YOUR particular engine as well as Catalina boat systems, ours are almost identical except for location and size.


With your battery bank description, you should be able to crank that engine over more than 25 times before you even start (pun intended) having problems. A start uses only an ah or two. I assume you are using the glow plugs first, right.


It sounds to me like something else is draining your batteries OR, more likely, you have some serious connection issues. Anytime anything electrical is intermittent it is 99% the connections. The easy ones are at the batteries, but the harder one is the main engine ground on the bell housing, usually at the port aft or maybe starboard aft on your engine. Don't just look at it. Take it off. Yank on it. Clean it and its landing place thoroughly. Replace the wire (which runs to the battery negatives in the battery box) if need be.


Let us know how you make out.


Here's some stuff that might help you in the future, too, all the best:


Engines 101 - The BIGGEST & BEST collection of M25 Series Universal Engine Information on the Internet, plus some M35, too This includes a link to the Critical Upgrades topic which has more engine information please read it too.

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Diesel_Engine

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Spring-Fever

Any advice welcome. Catalina-30 1984, M25 Engine.

Two brand new batteries, 1000am starter and a deep-cycle. Brand new 20amp trickle charger. New Alternator last Fall. New Starter last Fall.

Symptom: Turn the key, and see the instruments/meter dim A GREAT DEAL (even on two fully charged batteries.) I started and restarted a few times to test, and sure enough, the batteries are drained after about 4-5 restarts. (I did this as a test after motor would not start after a 3-hour cruise, even though motor was running most of the time. On the cruise, I went to start it and the lights dimmed, but there was not enough juice to turn/crank the engine at all.) So when I got back, I recharged it with shore power, and did the 4 start test mention above.

This has happened many times. On occasion, I have waited a few minutes, and sometimes the engine will turn. But only sometimes.

Is it the Starter? Or perhaps the starter wires?

(The alternator is generating 14 volts when the engine is running, based on my battery meter on board, so that appears to be working.)

How do you "test" a starter?

Before I lead you down the Starter path - could it be something else?

Questions:

• How do you know your batteries are drained after 4 starts? Are you testing the batteries? This behaviour could also be a bad connection heating up enough to fail after the 4 starts.
• Tell us more about the instruments dimming. That suggests poor DC connection to the engine panel, which in turn might mean insufficient drive to the starter solenoid.
• When starting, or trying to start, do you see the DC voltage sag at the panel meter, cabin lights dim, or measuring directly across the starter battery?
• "On the cruise, I went to start it and the lights dimmed" - what lights?

My money is also on connections: at the battery terminals, the heavy connection to the starter, or the DC to the panel... or their return (ground) connections. Second choice - failing battery. Try to borrow a decent modern battery tester (aka conductance tester).

You can measure starter current with a loop-current ammeter that will also measure DC current. Some have a max/min function that allows you to capture peak starting current. Also try to measure voltage across the starter when starting - how much does it sag by?

[Cheechako]

Sounds to me like you have a hidden drain on your batteries. or they are not charging well due to dirty posts/connections. Beware that posts can be dirty but not look corroded. Wet layer in between the post and connector..
The lights WILL normally dim when starting though. It's a big draw.
Where is the ground cable on the engine? These often get dirty at the connection and dont have a good ground to the block or starter.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

OK, I have an M25 on a boat only two years newer than yours. I have been active in our C34 association for the past 20+ years and know something about YOUR particular engine as well as Catalina boat systems, ours are almost identical except for location and size.


With your battery bank description, you should be able to crank that engine over more than 25 times before you even start (pun intended) having problems. A start uses only an ah or two. I assume you are using the glow plugs first, right.


It sounds to me like something else is draining your batteries OR, more likely, you have some serious connection issues. Anytime anything electrical is intermittent it is 99% the connections. The easy ones are at the batteries, but the harder one is the main engine ground on the bell housing, usually at the port aft or maybe starboard aft on your engine. Don't just look at it. Take it off. Yank on it. Clean it and its landing place thoroughly. Replace the wire (which runs to the battery negatives in the battery box) if need be.


Let us know how you make out.


Here's some stuff that might help you in the future, too, all the best:


Engines 101 - The BIGGEST & BEST collection of M25 Series Universal Engine Information on the Internet, plus some M35, too This includes a link to the Critical Upgrades topic which has more engine information please read it too.

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Diesel_Engine

Re-read and follow the advice above.


And always start with the easy/cheap stuff - too many people assume with no real basis it's the batteries, starter, etc... when its usually nothing more than poor maintenance of not periodically removing and cleaning all connections.

[donradcliffe]

I have a friend with a C30, same engine. She was told to hold down the glow plug button for 20 seconds, then hit the start button. Her engine would NOT turn over unless the glow plug was also pressed, even when the engine was warm. I traced out the wiring, and she was right--the starter switch was energized by the output of the glow plug switch.

I changed the starter switch power to upstream of the glow plug switch and told her to hold down the glow plug button for 20 seconds, then release it and hit the starter button. The engine started more reliably.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I have a friend with a C30, same engine. She was told to hold down the glow plug button for 20 seconds, then hit the start button. Her engine would NOT turn over unless the glow plug was also pressed, even when the engine was warm. I traced out the wiring, and she was right--the starter switch was energized by the output of the glow plug switch.

I changed the starter switch power to upstream of the glow plug switch and told her to hold down the glow plug button for 20 seconds, then release it and hit the starter button. The engine started more reliably.

Don, that's an interesting observation. I can tell you and the OP for a FACT that this is NOT how the boat was wired OEM (unless Catalina changed the M25/Seaward panel wiring between 1984 and 1986, which I doubt).


What many folks with the OEM wiring did was incorrectly try to start when they still held the glow plug button down. It was one of the very first things I learned NOT to do.


I don't doubt your story for a second, but I am almost sure it didn't come from the factory that way.


For the OP don't hold the glow plug button down while trying to start.


There is also a solenoid you can add to reduce the GP hold down time, it's included in the link I posted.


If the OP wants the original wiring diagrams for his engine, he can also find them in the manuals section of the C34 tech wiki I linked.


Thanks for pointing this out.

[Spring-Fever]

STU: Thanks, very helpful. Yes, I use the glow plugs (and I can see the drain they put on the battery - which seems normal). I do not hold the GLOW PLUG while starting, though. The battery drain after turning the key is far greater (lights on cockpit panel really, really dim abruptly). I think the advice on replacing/cleaning connections/cables is the logical next step. I will swap out the O-connectors (on both ends) after cutting the wire back to "fresh wire", and REPLACE entire wire if it looks really bad. Then do the same for any/all wires coming off the STARTER.

[Spring-Fever]

Lake-Effect.....can you or somebody elaborate more on how bad connections "heat up and fail"? (Because it does seem that occasionally, after waiting a few minutes, a random turn of the key does get a crank).


Questions:
How do you know your batteries are drained after 4 starts? Are you testing the batteries?

A: Not directly. But my built-in battery meter (an old analog dial type) does show batteries nearer 12, not 13.


This behaviour could also be a bad connection heating up enough to fail after the 4 starts.
Tell us more about the instruments dimming. That suggests poor DC connection to the engine panel, which in turn might mean insufficient drive to the starter solenoid.

A: The warning lights on the instrument panel in the cockpit go from full bright, to maybe 1/3 or their normal brightness. And the buzzer gets sluggish.

Q: What are you referring to when you say "DC connection to the engine panel"? Where is the "engine panel"?



When starting, or trying to start, do you see the DC voltage sag at the panel meter, cabin lights dim, or measuring directly across the starter battery?

A: I was ONLY looking at the warning lights on instrument panel in the cockpit, near where I turn the ignition key. (I don't remember if the voltage meter at the control panel dips, but I'm sure it does. I'll look at it and cabin lights.)


"On the cruise, I went to start it and the lights dimmed" - what lights?

A: Warning Lights on the control panel in the cockpit.

[EngineerRetired]

Originally Posted by Spring-Fever

Two brand new batteries, 1000am starter


Symptom: Turn the key, and see the instruments/meter dim A GREAT DEAL

Then it is NOT the starter or the glow plugs themselves.

New batteries, alternator, and starter just changed out... My money is a mistake in how it was all reconnected. Really sounds like a high current drain through the alternator.


Check the connection (switch) to the deep cycle battery. DOUBLE check the terminals are not reversed on the deep cycle battery. East to have happen. Disconnect the deep cycle battery completely for testing until you have this resolved.

[Nord Sal]

Do you hear the starter solenoid engage? You should hear a "click" if it does.