Smartgauge w/ 3 batterys

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Don't be baffled by BS and marketing hype.....

A lot of people have been viewing this thread and they must wonder why a Marine Service Provider is being given such a hard time! So who is giving the best information here?

Ramblinrod your are just the kind of so called "expert" in the marine business that I found to be worst than garage mechanics for BS - and that's after 15 years as a live aboard in the UK. That's why I turned to excellent forums like this to learn, but I have now stopped extensive posting because of this kind of thread. Many of your other 1700 postings on other threads are not much better.

Everybody will have stories of service providers who have screwed up - in our marina last month a friend was told by the electrical engineer that his batteries were dead so he order £3000 of new Lithium batteries.I tested his old bank for him and it was fine - the engineer retested them and agreed and the marina was forced to buy his Lithium batteries from him. Another boat on the same pontoon was told his bank was fine by the same engineer and after a few days out at anchor they limped back with a bank full of dead batteries, yet the load tester had shown each battery capable of giving enough current to start an engine. These load testers will not tell you how long a battery will last with a small load at anchor. My simple test with 5 amps load on each 100Ah battery after it had been on charge for 24 hours lasted 20 minutes before it dropped quickly below 12 volts - not the ten to twenty hours it should have lasted!

So don't believe everything your marine service provider tells you - and don't believe everything you read on these threads without checking other sources for the same information.

So finally ramblinrod:

Originally Posted by john61ct

Just because you keep repeating it over and over, doesn't make it true!

I agree - it is sad that the internet has got this bad.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

A lot of people have been viewing this thread and they must wonder why a Marine Service Provider is being given such a hard time! So who is giving the best information here?

Ramblinrod your are just the kind of so called "expert" in the marine business that I found to be worst than garage mechanics for BS - and that's after 15 years as a live aboard in the UK. That's why I turned to excellent forums like this to learn, but I have now stopped extensive posting because of this kind of thread. Many of your other 1700 postings on other threads are not much better.

Everybody will have stories of service providers who have screwed up - in our marina last month a friend was told by the electrical engineer that his batteries were dead so he order £3000 of new Lithium batteries.I tested his old bank for him and it was fine - the engineer retested them and agreed and the marina was forced to buy his Lithium batteries from him. Another boat on the same pontoon was told his bank was fine by the same engineer and after a few days out at anchor they limped back with a bank full of dead batteries, yet the load tester had shown each battery capable of giving enough current to start an engine. These load testers will not tell you how long a battery will last with a small load at anchor. My simple test with 5 amps load on each 100Ah battery after it had been on charge for 24 hours lasted 20 minutes before it dropped quickly below 12 volts - not the ten to twenty hours it should have lasted!

So don't believe everything your marine service provider tells you - and don't believe everything you read on these threads without checking other sources for the same information.

So finally ramblinrod:



I agree - it is sad that the internet has got this bad.

First, personal attacks are not allowed on this forum. I will let this go once.

Second, can you please advise one thing that is not 100% correct in any of my posts in this thread?

Of course you can't.

When a marine service provider who makes money selling and installing gear tells you that you don't really need something, it may be smart to listen instead of posting this nonsense.

Are you directly or indirectly connected to Smart Gauge, or any of it's employees?

[ramblinrod]

[QUOTE=john61ct;2486819]Aargh!


Agreed, everything I have stated is 100% true, repeating it, is merely repetition of something that was true, is true, and will be true.

Please advise anything in any of my posts in this thread that isn't 100% true, repeated or not.

I'm waiting.....one untruth.

How about you back up your claims instead of posting ridiculous drivel.

[john61ct]

That the complex proprietary technology embedded in Chris Gibson's invention is no more useful than a voltmeter.

That there is no major lifespan difference between 12V automotive form factor batteries sold in consumer retail channels and those made by the top vendors designed expressly for deep cycling usage.

I could go on but won't bother, those two alone cause me to take anything else you claim with a kilo of salt.

[lateral]

"Agreed, everything I have stated is 100% true, repeating it, is merely repetition of something that was true, is true, and will be true".


Sad, because there is some wisdom in your words, just you think yours is the only wisdom.
Your judgement on the SG is without owning one or testing one.
Your conclusions, anecdotal, from an unknown "electronics professor".
No backup publication whatsoever. Its just hearsay.

Whereas Rod Collins has rigorously put it through its paces, from an initially negative mindset, to a mostly positive one. With methodology/summary/conclusion to backup.

Not everyone wants the exercise of mental gymnastics, battery divining,
that you are blessed with. Some want something that just works.

Really, we are not your customer fan base to foist your ideas on
without proof.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by lateral

Your conclusions, anecdotal, from an unknown "electronics professor"

I believe he claimed to be a "professor" himself, but turned out to be at a community college / trade school.

But I both could be remembering wrong, and would be very ready to accept that such institutions have much more credibility in Canada than in the US.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by john61ct

That the complex proprietary technology embedded in Chris Gibson's invention is no more useful than a voltmeter.

Incorrect.

A Smart Gauge is not accurate while batteries are charging. (100% true.)

If one has a solar charging system, then a Smart Gauge is not accurate when the sun is shining, which may represent the majority of waking hours. (100% true.)

With a solar charging system, simply reading battery voltage to estimate SOC at 2 points in the day (near sunrise and sunset) is adequate and no additional battery monitoring will likely extend battery life by any substantial amount. (100% true.)

Sorry, you earned a "Fail".

[daletournier]

RR isnt the only cruiser doing it as he suggests, i do and have for years, another experienced cruiser here Dockhead from what i read also after many years came to the conclusion that the voltmeter is adequate.

Is sg better ? Probably is, is the checking via voltmeter adequate? most likely is.

How much of difference is there in increasing the life span of your batteries out here in the fulltime cruising environment? Well unless your running identical boats, systems, crews and environment side by side well know really knows regardless of theory.

Would i have a sg? sure , but im fairly certain it wont change much regarding my energy imput output charging procedures.

What im doing works and as come about over many years of cruising, the word adequate is the word thats being ignored.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by lateral

[U]Your judgement on the SG is without owning one or testing one.

Correct.

Does one need to own something to develop an accurate opinion on the value of possessing it?

A camel may be a prized possession for many people.

Though I have never owned a camel, I am very certain I don't want or need one (as the world stands today anyway).

This is the value of critical thinking.

[weavis]

We have a very strict rule about being nice on CF. Post have been removed containing demeaning YOUTUBE snippets designed to insult.

We take it seriously. Not being nice is infraction territory. Some are finding out.

Be nice people.

[john61ct]

My apologies to all.

My refutations of the false claims have already been made in past posts above, so I won't beat this dead horse.

I completely agree that many feel no need to know their bank's SoC accurately, and for them tracking voltage may well be adequate.

For those that do want accuracy, there is no better solution than SmartGauge, except also adding a coulomb-counter kept well calibrated.

Which many well-equipped boats do, overkill is in the eye of the beholder, your boat your choice.

[lateral]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Correct.

Does one need to own something to develop an accurate opinion on the value of possessing it?

A camel may be a prized possession for many people.

Though I have never owned a camel, I am very certain I don't want or need one (as the world stands today anyway).

This is the value of critical thinking.

My critical thinking is:
My life is probably more similar to yours than regular camel owners so
I stand advised & won't buy a camel. Good advice.

My battery Vows:
I have, and will continue to use my Battery monitors vm to, at a glance, give me a rule of thumb on SOC. ( with all the vagaries factored in, if I remember)
Whilst bat is not being charged.

I will compare this with my SG reading to corroborate. And have Peace of mind. Whilst bat is not being charged.


I will, alongside my table of SpecificG's & voltages versus SOC stick a "notice to validate with the Smart Gauge", for anyone else using the boat.
Whilst bat is not being charged.

I will continue to monitor and cycle charger, until BM current reads approx. 1.5% capacity, occasionally, and compare with rested VM reading and SG.

I will, when the mood takes me equalize.

I will keep bats topped up with H2go.

I will not regret the SG purchase & the ease of explaining in my absence what is the current SOC, to the uninitiated.
Hell, at less than half the price of my fluke clamp it is a bargain.

Each to your own.

[Dockhead]

I don't want to get involved in a passionate debate pro and con of this or that system of measuring SOC. And as Weavis said, you guys need to keep it clean in here.

For whatever it's worth, though, I can offer my OBSERVATIONS of using different systems on my particular boat. YMMV.

1. First of all, WHAT do you need to know? This may be different on different boats. On my boat -- with no solar -- what I need to know is pretty simple -- do I need to charge now? Or can I go on for a while more? I don't really need to know whether I have 78% vs 74%, and I probably don't even need to know whether I have 70% vs 80%. I would LIKE to know how far I have gotten, when I'm charging, but that's not critical. What is critical is knowing that I'm not below 50%.


2. In my experience, amp-counting meters are not of much use except as ammeters. They give a false sense of precision while accumulating large errors, and errors which are harmful -- they overstate your SOC and lull you into thinking you can keep going when in fact you really need to charge. They do not accurately tell you the one critical fact -- am I getting close to 50% or not? I'm not denigrating ammeters, though -- knowing the current going in and out is really useful, and when you're charging, it is THE one really useful datum.


3. Looking at system voltage cannot tell you how far you got when charging, and cannot tell you anything about SOC when you have a charge source attached or if there's a surface charge on. But with no charge source and no surface charge, you can know with certainty that you have AT LEAST the SOC which you would have if the system voltage were resting voltage. In my experience, on my boat, if the loads are small (cabin lighting and electronics), the actual SOC as checked by battery specific gravity is VERY CLOSE to the SOC I read from the Trojan resting voltage chart against my system voltage. YMMV especially if your bank is small compared to your loads, but this is the result on my boat.


4. I have been very surprised to find out, over a few years now, that the SmartGauge, on my boat, tracks almost exactly the information I get from system voltage vs. Trojan resting voltage chart. Uncannily close. If the SmartGauge is doing something fancy with internal resistance or impedence spectrography, I have seen no evidence of it (which doesn't prove anything -- that is just one observation).



OK, and now a big fat YMMV. This is just my personal experience. I have a large battery bank, no solar, and a diesel generator. I'm not a really critical user of battery monitors, and don't fret that much about electrical power. My job with SOC is a simple one, really just boiling down to "crank up the genset before the batts get too low". Your job might be different, and you might not get the same results as me, on your own boat.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Exile

If I understand John's analysis correctly, charging sources misrepresent both VM and SG readings upwards but are quickly corrected (5-10 mins) once removed, whereas battery discharge/cycling misrepresent VM readings downward but take a long time to correct (24-48 hrs). So the SG can fill the gap by accurately showing SOC a short time after charging sources have been removed. In your case, you would either need an easy way to temporarily remove your solar & wind charging, or wait for a calm evening. In any event, it sounds like a SG has limited value if you are using it to determine when your batts. have finished recharging back to 100% as I suspect most probably do.

But again, this also means that an accurate VM reading of 12.2v or above (or whatever V your batt mfg specifies) with charging sources removed probably means a true voltage which is higher, i.e. greater than 50% (unless an aging batt's lower overall capacity influences??). So for those less concerned with precision & want to simply know when it's time to turn on their engine or genset to recharge their batts, then a VM -- along with periodic capacity tests and resetting your amp counter accordingly -- may suffice.

I'm sure John or someone else will correct if I got any of this wrong.

The following information is related to FLA (flooded lead acid batteries). AGMs and GELs will be similar but voltages will be a bit different (consult the manufacturer).

When a battery bank has a charging source applied, the terminal voltage represents the charging voltage, not the battery SOC (state of charge).

When a charge voltage is removed, the terminal voltage represents the "residual charge voltage". Some may refer to this as a "surface charge".

With no load applied, the residual charge voltage will take a long time to dissipate (many hours).

When a load is applied, the residual charge voltage dissipates much more rapidly.

In practice, with a solar charging system, the charge voltage (~13.3 Vdc on float) diminishes approaching sun set, and normal loads (refrigeration, lighting, etc.) dissipate the residual charge voltage.

At sunset, or shortly thereafter, the terminal voltage will have dropped to around 12.8 Vdc quite quickly, but will then slow its decline quite dramatically. It may take an hour or 2 to decline to 12.7 Vdc. Over the course of the night, the voltage will further decline to some lower value.

In the morning, around sunrise (or shortly after but before the sun angle rises on the panels and they start producing any real current) the battery voltage will be at its lowest.

So this is quite complicated, what does it mean?

If your head hurts and your eyes glazed over at all of the preceding that is fine because it really doesn't matter, its just an explanation of why the following is true.

With an average cruising boat equipped with a solar charging system, having adequate bank size for normal loads, all one needs to know is:

1. If the batteries read 12.75 Vdc at sunset, they were fully charged. (The goal, life is good.)

2. If the batteries read more than 12.2 Vdc at sunrise, they were not depleted below 50%. (The goal, life is good.)

3. With a little experience, based on the morning voltage and the sunshine forecast, one can easily predict how much supplemental charging will be required.

Lastly, (and mostly unrelated to battery voltage / SOC association), remember that the bank charge acceptance rate diminishes with SOC.

What does this mean?

If supplemental charging will be required, it is much better to turn on the alternator or generator in the morning, when the bank is likely to be at its highest acceptance rate of the day, and then let solar do what it can to top off (batteries at 12.75 Vdc at sunset). In cooler temps, this helps get the cabin temp up in the morning. In warmer temps, this help keep the boat cool in the heat of the day.

As batteries age and capacity diminishes, one will find that the morning voltage is declines over time, with everything else being equal (remember to take into account seasonal sun elevation). If when batteries were new, with full day sun, they were always around 12.4 Vdc at sunrise, and now they are often below 12.2 Vdc, it is time to replace them.

One can perform a 20 hr capacity test if they wish, but in all likelihood, it will confirm that it is time to replace them.

If this works for you (as it does for me and many others) no other battery monitoring is really required, no matter how extensive or expensive the bank (Lithium variations excluded).

Despite all of this, if one wants to put a battery monitor in their boat, I really don't care.

But please, don't claim I'm ignorant, make straw man arguments, or post silly cartoons as an attempt to ridicule, intimidate, or bully, just because I don't believe a battery monitor is an essential device or will significantly extend battery life over just using a cheap DVM as described above.

Everyone / anyone should be able to post information they believe is helpful without this garbage.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I believe he claimed to be a "professor" himself, but turned out to be at a community college / trade school.

But I both could be remembering wrong, and would be very ready to accept that such institutions have much more credibility in Canada than in the US.

I have never claimed to be a "professor".

I am "Canadian".