Shore power inlet fuse/breaker

[boatpoker]

Paneltronics single throw, double pole breaker with polarity indicator - $71.00
https://www.amazon.com/Paneltronics-...7900951&sr=8-1

[sailingharry]

I realize that the retail market does not exist to meet my personal expectations. But, it's still frustrating. The panel listed by BoatPoker is indeed a 30A breaker, and does meet the basic requirement (a 30A breaker), although it doesn't have the bonus of ELCI. But more importantly, it doesn't scratch the itch. I would need to fabricate some sort of box to put it in, and it is HUGE for the requirement (9x7x5). It is encumbered by a nice large panel, and a reverse polarity light (the light is important, and is quite conspicuous on my main panel -- this will be buried on the bulkhead up inside the cockpit coaming 6" from the inlet, impossible to see the redundant light).


The solution isn't all that hard. From the responses so far, a $140 ELCI breaker, a $20 Carlon box from Home Depot, an hour with a drill/saw/file, and I'll have it. And I have all winter to pursue a RCCB (what appears to be the industrial name for an ELCI), until I lose interest and pay Blue Seas.




Hmmm....new subject.... Is a reverse polarity light, by design, a connection between neutral and ground (true fact, but maybe not significant), and a potential trip for an ELCI? And on some boats, a "polarity good" light, that I think is a connection between hot and ground -- with the same effect). IF I put an ELCI at my shore connection, will the reverse polarity lights trip it? Or the similar breakers now required in marinas? Are they part of the nuisance trips people are seeing?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Are they part of the nuisance trips people are seeing?

Short answer ... no.

https://www.bluesea.com/support/arti...ity_Indicators

[sailingharry]

OK, so sometimes, I'm annoyingly persistent.


ABYC sets the aspirational gold standard, and as I've mentioned, one I try and reach when I do work. But ABYC isn't always readable. I'm a licensed engineer, with a career in industry, and smarter than the average bear when reading these things. But I'm not an ABYC trained electrician, not by a long shot.



ABYC wants to see service entrance protection, within 10', breaking both poles, with an ampacity less than 20% over the main panel breaker (I assume to minimize nuisance trips) with 30ma detection. They then state it is to be either an ELCI (which appears to be exclusive to Blue Seas) or a "Type A RCD." Neither of those are very helpful terms to search for what is needed (actually, "RCD Type A 32A" yields many vendors, almost all on AliExpress with many prices in the low teens -- not my style!). They do indicate that it shall meet UL 1053. They also indicate that it shall meet UL 943 with several modifications (that's hard to search on!).



However, some digging around finds that the industry uses other terms. This item, from a US manufacturer (I think) is available on Amazon for $29. It's DIN mounted, 30ma detection, 32A trip, double pole, UL 1053 listed, and called a Ground Fault Circuit Breaker (it does not mention modifications to UL943, GFCI). No where does it mention ELCI or RCD. It looks like about perfect, and I may decide to call it a huge improvement, even if not "perfect."


So, does anyone know what makes an ELCI or a Type A RCD different from a 30ma 2-pole 32A Ground Fault Breaker? And which is "better" and why?

[Frankly]

Ground fault receptacles/ circuit breakers (a bit of a misnomer as a regular circuit breaker will protect against ground faults) typically are set to trip on a leakage current to ground of 5 ma. Works pretty well on a single circuit but that level of sensitivity would produce a lot of nuisance trips when applied to an electrical system (several/ many circuits). ELCI/ RCD typically are set to trip on a leakage to ground of 30 ma. Although this level of leakage (when the cause of the leak is a human) borders on possibility causing harm, but represents a reasonable compromise.

BS does not make the circuit breakers but they are mfg by Carling. Might look around under that rep for a slight better price (been at this a long time and have a high confidence in BS stuff).

Not to get cross threaded with ABYC but on a more practical approach as I said before overcurrent protection can be located anywhere along the circuit upstream of the load (ie at the inverter with a 100 feet of 10/3 wrapped around the mast 3 times ). The breaker in the shore pedestal will protect the hole mess against short circuits and ground. faults. Not the letter of the law but a practical approach.

The ELCI/ RCD breakers buy a lot more real protection than the (less than 10 ft business).
Who is to say there us any magic in 10 ft, how about 2 ft, how about 50 ft. Just an arbitrary number that someone produced "via rectumus".

In my yacht the main breaker is located about 3 ft from the SP inlet, in my home the service runs 40 ft before the main breaker. I sleep equally well in both my berth and my bed.


Frankly

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Frankly

In my yacht the main breaker is located about 3 ft from the SP inlet, in my home the service runs 40 ft before the main breaker. I sleep equally well in both my berth and my bed.


Frankly

The building inspector involved with the 13 houses I built insisted the main breaker be within 10' of where the conductors entered the house.
I guess your jurisdiction is different.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Frankly

The ELCI/ RCD breakers buy a lot more real protection than the (less than 10 ft business).
Who is to say there us any magic in 10 ft, how about 2 ft, how about 50 ft. Just an arbitrary number that someone produced "via rectumus".

That seems to suggest you think breakers on the boat are redundant as long as there is one at the power post or maybe thats redundant too if there is one at the power plant ?

[Frankly]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

That seems to suggest you think breakers on the boat are redundant as long as there is one at the power post or maybe thats redundant too if there is one at the power plant ?

If the pedestal breaker is functional (ELCI or regular) and rated to match the yacht service rating then the main breaker on the yacht serves no electrical purpose and is just a convenience to secure the electricity on the yacht. Same could be said if your pedestal is served by a single 30 amp circuit with a breaker in a larger main power panel (they are not typically set up like this). Now we have two redundant series breakers. Convient yes, but does nothing to make the system electrically safer.


Frankly

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Frankly

If the pedestal breaker is functional (ELCI or regular) and rated to match the yacht service rating then the main breaker on the yacht serves no electrical purpose and is just a convenience to secure the electricity on the yacht. Same could be said if your pedestal is served by a single 30 amp circuit with a breaker in a larger main power panel (they are not typically set up like this). Now we have two redundant series breakers. Convient yes, but does nothing to make the system electrically safer.


Frankly

Wow !

[Frankly]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

The building inspector involved with the 13 houses I built insisted the main breaker be within 10' of where the conductors entered the house.
I guess your jurisdiction is different.

The NEC specifies no particular distance inside the structure to the main (wording something soft like near the service conductor entrance ). The jurisdiction where I live and practiced for 50 years also has adopted the 10 ft rule. My system is completely safe, legal, and meets this requirement. The secret is contained in the NEC wording of when the conductors are considered inside the structure. Below 4" of concrete in conduit is not inside the structure in the eyes of the NEC. So my main panel/ breaker is located in the middle of my house in a more convenient (IMO) location.


I have no problem with having the main as close as practical to the entrance but in my case I get to choose the definition of "practical".


Frankly

[Dougtiff]

The age of your boat does not require a ELCI, just install a 30A circuit breaker and purchase a reverse polarity tester to check the polarity, all for no more than 50 bucks.

[Frank999]

If you come up with an enclosure, e.g., by adapting a weatherproof electrical box, here's something that should work:


https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...3_11-04271.php

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Frank999

If you come up with an enclosure, e.g., by adapting a weatherproof electrical box, here's something that should work:


https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...3_11-04271.php

Nice. That would be easy to "come up with an enclosure" -- a simple Carlon wet location box would do it. Unfortunately, the inlet breaker needs to be two-pole.

[Frank999]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Nice. That would be easy to "come up with an enclosure" -- a simple Carlon wet location box would do it. Unfortunately, the inlet breaker needs to be two-pole.

Then two breakers should work fine. Presumably, the reason it needs to be a double-pole breaker is that the polarity might be reversed, so that the breaker that was supposed to be on the hot wire was on the neutral instead, and the hot wire was unprotected. With two breakers, you'd always have one on the hot wire, even if polarity was wrong.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Frank999

Then two breakers should work fine. Presumably, the reason it needs to be a double-pole breaker is that the polarity might be reversed, so that the breaker that was supposed to be on the hot wire was on the neutral instead, and the hot wire was unprotected. With two breakers, you'd always have one on the hot wire, even if polarity was wrong.

Wrong.

A double pole breaker is required. It is not the same as 2 single pole breakers. A double pole breaker totally breaks when one of the 2 poles break.