Realistic non-bs comparison of lithium to lead

[captpage]

Basic’s - floated or wet batteries will spill and fum. Gas blows up and needs elect Exhaust Fans. —- all storage batteries have a 200 to 300 cycle rate; only Nickel Cadumin which is 200 times more expensive- can be froze and cycled forever - Disney uses N/C and after 50 years only lost 10%. Salt water will eat the positive pole off, mini subs enclose the batteries in nonconductive oil. Electrolysis is to be watched all ways, from charging, to shaft and prop not forget hardware. For 35 foot or less do not forget electric outboards...they can be pulled up out of water...great for speed under sail. If cruising - one needs a generator, so what do you gain? Think Safety First?

[LargeMarge]

Following!

Very interested.

First == this is a lot of weight. Who is qualified to modify the structure to accommodate the banks during years of pounding?

Second == charging? Without a genset, is the craft limited to daysails?

Are these banks dedicated to the motor?

As far as I know, regen works although knocking off a couple knots from your progress. Does the complexity compensate for the gain?

I sure wish you could add more PV... but the rigging aloft limits that.

Ready... GO!

[captpage]

Originally Posted by LargeMarge

Following!

Very interested.

First == this is a lot of weight. Who is qualified to modify the structure to accommodate the banks during years of pounding?

Second == charging? Without a genset, is the craft limited to daysails?

Are these banks dedicated to the motor?

As far as I know, regen works although knocking off a couple knots from your progress. Does the complexity compensate for the gain?

I sure wish you could add more PV... but the rigging aloft limits that.

Ready... GO!

You bring up very good points.

I am retired Captain and Chief Engineer Oceans and the more you explore this direction, of Electric drive, proven parts, support, and the ever evolving futures of electric drive in salt water...you might go to builders if you have the cash flow.

Any time you lose any forward speed in a sail boat is not worth the self generation function, now if you in a vehicle and can go down hill and braking - it might be a little benefit to the power supply.

An excellent sailor uses the powers that have been around before power. Proper sails and rigging, Winds, Current, Drift, tides...CLEAN Hull...

I like Torqeedo’s designs and some others...in a few years a huge direction will be in electric drive, mainly for the weekend and coastal cruiser. The next best thing for sail boats is “kite sails”, with power upward to hundreds of hourse power, right now a 30’ that is lightened (no engine, fuel, water, gutted is doing speeds that approach instability. I am not talking hull speed, I have seen over 20+ it’s...gone! will be the lazy day cruise. Plus the stable cruise of the heavy vessel. For all of you out there with dreams, Please go-for-it and make the new discoveries of boating as our past seamen have done - GOD Speed and be Safe!!!

[LargeMarge]

I wonder...

Instead of using the sails to spin a regen while moving the boat through the water, could the boat be stationary = anchored = while tides spin the regen?

PV seems efficient on a boat designed with enough flat areas... and no shadowing.

A genset seems the way to go.

[Cathie]

Note that Nigel Calder gives Firefly batteries top marks. They were developed by Caterpillar for remote mine use and sold to Firefly after the 2008 crash. We chose them over Lithium Ion. We initially bought Lithium Ion batteries and returned them as there was a defective cell which the company would not help with. We are in to our third year with our 8 Firefly propulsion bank for our Nonsuch 26 with no issues and terrific performance.

[Hoopla]

Originally Posted by KTP

Not sure that I really think the Wynns know much of anything...don't they just repeat what the battery installer told them?

I don't know about the Wynn's, however I can assure you about 90% of your OP with regard to LFP was nonsense. I don't know why you started this thread not knowing the subject yet dismissing it at the outset.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Hoopla

I don't know about the Wynn's, however I can assure you about 90% of your OP with regard to LFP was nonsense. I don't know why you started this thread not knowing the subject yet dismissing it at the outset.

I guess, he was looking for justification / support for his lead acid decision...

Any other outcome would be probably not realistic BS, thats what the title suggests.

[Mike Banks]

A free wheeling prop does not slow a sailing vessel as much as does an ordinary fixed propeller locked stationary in the water.


If one wishes to derive power from the propeller, one needs one properly designed for it--with different blade profiles and rigged so that the pitch alters from driving to being driven--which is an entirely different concept to one standard or variable pitched propeller which is still profiled to be a driving propeller. Using a variable pitch propeller so that it is merely feathered while under sail or reversed for the comparatively less time it takes to go astern for a limited time will not be very efficient at regenerating power while under sail. However--it will still be able to generate some power.

Properly rigged with the right equipment, there should be enough regenerated power to run most of the equipment aboard on a fast catamaran or trimaran. Less on a cruising monohull where speeds are much lower.

[mebucko]

Just a thought. Are you planning to effectively move the weight of the motor, trans, and fuel tankage to a spot under the settee's? Are these areas robust enough to handle the concentrated weight? Won't this also make the stern more suseptable to lift in a following sea? maybe even contributing to an unstable bow under spinaker?

[David Gunn]

We have been cruising since 2002 and covered 23,000 miles from Australia to the Caribbean in a 42 foot monohull. Initially we used Lifeline AGMS and got 7 years. We then tried Mastervolt AGMs but changed them to cross the Atlantic, although there was nothing wrong with them after 2 years, but we needed more amp hours.
We now have 5x 125Ah Lifeline AGMs and they are performing very well. We expect 10 years and have a friend in Australia who also gets 10 years from Lifeline AGMS.
Before ordering the Mastervolt AGMs we spent $6000 USD ordering Lithium batteries from SMART in USA whilst in the Mediterranean.
Over 2 years later and no batteries and money is gone with no refund. We are from Australia and visited the SMART address in Fort Lauderdale whilst passing through. There was an empty office and they do not answer emails or phone calls. We have been advised they have sold the international side of SMART batteries but we are unable to contact the international branch or get our money back.

[john61ct]

Every industry has its shysters, but batteries more than usual.

If international, do not use less than famously stellar US suppliers, a jurisdiction with the least consumer protections of any developed nation.

Not meaning to blame the victim though, sorry for your troubles.

[CatNewBee]

Sorry to hear this, but it is to blame on the supplier, not on the technology.

[Silverbullet]

I am a SOLAR ENERGY PIONEER, having built my first system in the late sixties. I built hybrid autos around that same time. I have a little experience in the field having installed over 10,000 systems.
I am a BLUE WATER SAILOR. My largest boat was 42", and I still have one blue water sailboat in the 30' range.
I believe that all this conjecture exhibits not only the choices but the difficulties with dealing with a solar system at sea. I can pretty much destroy many of the statements made here ie: 50% discharge? Right! This is going to sound really crazy but for me, a windmill to top off or recharge, taking days, in the event of a catastrophic failure with some part of the solar assembly, Id rather be sailing than to be concerned about all this hardware and software. Get any battery you are comfortable with that is reasonably priced. Lots of options. Dont be obsessed with any of this. The essence of the exercise is to GO SAILING! Unless you have a lot of square footage so that you could build one of my designs for example on a pontoon boat, forget about all this and just simply get a diesel charger. Fuel tanks I use are from road tractors, aluminum, reasonably priced and durable. Used, take an air tank and gauge to the junkyard with you to test. You can buy those for just the price of the scrap metal. Always use a popular brand of additive such as STA-BIL 22255.
You can take the advice of any of the posters on this blog but if you want simple, safe, dependable....get a generator, a windmill and some decent batteries. Ive tried a lot of different kinds and to let the cat out of the bag, my choice is back up cell tower batteries for about $50.00 each. But you have to know somebody to get your hands on them. When they change out the batteries here, they also change out the reserve batteries that have never been used! Those are the ones you want. A large generator wont have to run long to recharge your battery bank. If you really want no worries, check out the propane or dual fuel, gas or LP "Champion" from Cabela's. Max output 4750 watts and running watts @ about 3250. Not saying this is the best or the best price but its simply a quick reference. I DO NOT RECOMMEND A GASOLINE GENERATOR AT SEA! A boat gets real damn little when its on fire. Either LP or diesel is the only way to fly. When I say no worries, a diesel generator needs to be exercised every month without fail. With LP its a gas and there is residue to gum up the works, no need to ever exercise except to test for an hour or so, charging batteries at the dock to be sure all is well. Oil changes are with the LP are longer intervals than with the diesel.
OK,so I have put you off on a completely different tangent to add to your options. I dont know how many of the posters have anywhere near the experience with solar or sailing as I do.
PS the LP can also be used for your stove, spot water heater and if you run a couple of fin tubes with a small 12VDC pump you can heat your cabin as well.
PPS. NEVER PLACE BATTERIES IN YOUR CABIN. And have them properly ventilated. (Speaking of the quantity of batteries for a battery powered boat)
Oh, and my pontoon design, the entire floor is covered with solar panels with a sheet of SAR acrylic over the panels. But you have to have some ventilation under the panels or the efficiency will drop as much as 30% if heat is trapped in between layers. CLEAN BOAT SHOES ONLY!

[KTP]

Originally Posted by Hoopla

I don't know about the Wynn's, however I can assure you about 90% of your OP with regard to LFP was nonsense. I don't know why you started this thread not knowing the subject yet dismissing it at the outset.

I disagree with you but feel free to point out the 90% of my OP which was nonsense. Making a general statement doesn't do much to promote your case.

LFP has some big things going for it:

1) Half the weight or less of LA

2) Less voltage sag

3) Quicker charge

It also has some negatives, the primary being that it is manufactured in only one country and has questionable engineering and quality controls for DIY systems. I have followed several threads about certain BMS devices for instance, only to find out by the end of the thread that BMS and company are out of business. I think to compare DIY LFP directly to a drop in AGM battery by a quality manufacturer in business for decades (who provides batteries to the military) is a bit disingenuous. I personally feel that one needs to go with at least something like a Victron LFP solution to have a system that is reliable and has a good warranty. Those solutions however are 3x to 5x the cost of AGM and 8x to 10x the cost of flooded LA.

[CatNewBee]

Well, it is silly to compare it that way.

Its like a honest no BS compare of a Hummer to a Ferrari.

Both are somehow on the edge in their abilities, and designed for a specific use. It would be stupid to try off-road trails with the Ferrari, as it is silly to run on the speedway the Hummer - it could be fun, but this is not what it was the design goal for them.

Same with LFP and golfcart batteries.

Especially if you reject all variants inbetween (Winston, Calb, etc) and focus only on the extremes like the Victron LFP (what use Winston cells btw.) and ignore the DIY solution, that are competitive. They are the like a (BMW) in contrast to cheap AGM (Toyota) or robust wet LA (Ford).

There i a very broad range of all types of energy storage, The Yellow top spiral cell AGM 75Ah are sold for a fortune in Europe 350$. If you compare by color, they cost here almost the same per Ah as the yellow Winston LiFeYPO4 including a cheap BMS.

And if you take the non-bms LFP 12V batteries, they have the same or a little better life expectance as the yellow AGM, are lighter, drop in, and can provide higher currents.

Either way, LFP is very versatile, as LA and AGM / GEL is. If you look long enough, you will find what you are looking for.
It is like the car market, there are all flavors of mobility for all sort of pockets.