Purchasing advice for batteries and charger/inverter

[sogin]

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

First let me say thank you for clicking and seeing if you can help.

I am in the process of researching new batteries, and inverter/charger combo. I know my usage plays a large part in what the best setup for me will be. With that being said I want to be on the hook as much as possible. My boat has a refrigerator, air conditioning, LED TV, coffee pot. All lighting is being upgraded to LED. I used a calculator and got a 200ah per day usage from it (not sure how accurate that is). I was looking at the (815-3012 Freedom SW Series 3000 Watt Inverter/Charger) I recently purchased 4 Duracell AGM batteries to hold me off for a while 2 are for house bank, 1 for engine, 1 for windlass) but then learned my charger needs to be replaced. So I am now wondering if I should change over to 6v, stay with 12v or go to 24v. I am willing to buy new better batteries etc and need advise on where to start with upgrading my bank, charger/inverter, as well as a recharging system (I am thinking diesel generator as my boat is wired and plumbed for it already) Thanks for your time and I am looking forward to seeing your responses.

If you have the funds, I wonder if adding a fuel cell might be a good solution for keeping AGMs happy under a scenario that involves heavy usage. Some like a Hydromax by hydrovane might be of interest but they are expensive. the cost to run is supposedly around $20 / 100 amp hours. Not sure how that would work out for toppling off batteries that are already bulk charged. The down side is the need to provide distilled water as well as the fuel cartridges. At least they are quiet and require little or no maintenance.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

Those Firefly batteries seem like a great thing, if they can live up to their hype. I like the idea of Life-po but can't see them being worth that kind of investment. My only dislike of FLA batteries is the weight, size, and maintenance. I would consider the Firefly's, but there seems to be a lot of hating going on that they are a scam. I do not currently have a generator on my boat, it is wired and plumbed for it, but no generator onboard yet. If I thought I would be able to not do a generator, I would be than willing to not spend that money I am just trying to be honest with myself about what it will take to make my extended cruising comfortable.

Based on capacity I don't think there is a significant difference in size and weight between AGMs and FLA batteries. Since AGMs are about 4X the price of FLA then I'm more than willing to put up with an occasional watering.

Also, as A64 mentioned, AGMs are generally much less tolerant of abuse than FLAs. If you cannot top them off frequently, fully charge them ever week or so and never let them sit at low or partial state of charge for a long time then AGMs will probably serve you well. If you can't do all the above then you will very possibly see a very early death of a grand or more worth of batteries.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by sogin

If you have the funds, I wonder if adding a fuel cell might be a good solution for keeping AGMs happy under a scenario that involves heavy usage. Some like a Hydromax by hydrovane might be of interest but they are expensive. the cost to run is supposedly around $20 / 100 amp hours. Not sure how that would work out for toppling off batteries that are already bulk charged. The down side is the need to provide distilled water as well as the fuel cartridges. At least they are quiet and require little or no maintenance.

Isn't that like treating your batteries like they are made with gold plates by feeling they diamonds and platinum?

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Based on capacity I don't think there is a significant difference in size and weight between AGMs and FLA batteries. Since AGMs are about 4X the price of FLA then I'm more than willing to put up with an occasional watering.

Also, as A64 mentioned, AGMs are generally much less tolerant of abuse than FLAs. If you cannot top them off frequently, fully charge them ever week or so and never let them sit at low or partial state of charge for a long time then AGMs will probably serve you well. If you can't do all the above then you will very possibly see a very early death of a grand or more worth of batteries.

I have not seen the 4x the cost that you have based on the same ah (maybe I am not looking in the right place) This is more toward what I am seeing,

AGM = MASTERVOLT 6-Volt AGM Battery, 400Ah Cost $599
Flooded = WEST MARINE 6-Volt Flooded Marine Battery, 370 Ah Cost $440

Am I missing something?

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Isn't that like treating your batteries like they are made with gold plates by feeling they diamonds and platinum?

Yea I don't think this is a practical solution for my needs. Way to expensive to operate after the initial purchase. Solar and wind are free after the initial purchase, and diesel gennys sip fuel so the cost to run one all day once a week would cost pennies compaired.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

I am thinking I would like to have about 800ah of of house batteries. I don't like the idea of FLA batteries, so I would go with AGM since I think they offer the best bang for my buck. I am now considering Mastervolt AGM 6 Volt Batteries, as I understand it 6v batteries are more durable than their 12v counterparts. I am thinking 2 or 4 of the Mastervolt AGM 6/400 6-Volt AGM Battery, 400Ah, 875 CCAat about $600 each I think that would get the job done. Any thoughts on this configuration?

That'd be lots o' capacity; can't tell if you'd need that much really. That whole "energy budget" thing. Although larger overall capacity could well mean you draw the bank down less (state of charge, SOC, percentage-wise) and that could be a good thing.

Can't comment on how that configuration might fit into the space you have available. In general, multiple pairs or 6V GCs sounds good on paper (one pair could come with some risk; two Fireflys could well be better in that case), but in any case you'd have to compare footprint and height and so forth to whatever space you have.

And then you need a sufficiently-capable charger. MaineSail posted recently (or maybe it was in the other forum) that Lifeline recommends a minimum of 20% charging capacity, so you'd want a 160 amp charger (minimum) for an 800 Ah bank of Lifelines. Mastervolt probably publishes their own recommendations, to check those closely.

Ref your thoughts about AGMs vs. FLAs: simplified physical maintenance can be nifty, but the most significant trade-off for AGMs is apparently all about your capability to quickly recharge -- to 100% -- after each discharge cycle. Note comments by other respondents; if you can't get there from here due to circumstances, you could well end up just killing AGMs in return for that reduced maintenance thing. And good AGMs are expensive enough that you probably don't want to set yourself up for that. (In general, probably worth reading everything MaineSail ever said here about AGMs first, so you're at least prepared for best decision-making.)

Ref your comment about size, weight comparisons: A Group 31 weighs pretty much what a Group 31 weighs. A GC weighs pretty much what a GC weighs. And the BCI sizes are pretty much standard; an AGM G31 and a FLA G31 are the same dimensions, and so forth. Yes, there can be some relatively minor weight differences between types and brands within a specific BCI group, but not huge enough to make FLAs or AGMs more or less attractive just because of that. Comparing a flooded 8D to a G31 or 6V AGM would be different, of course...

-Chris

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

That'd be lots o' capacity; can't tell if you'd need that much really. That whole "energy budget" thing. Although larger overall capacity could well mean you draw the bank down less (state of charge, SOC, percentage-wise) and that could be a good thing.

Can't comment on how that configuration might fit into the space you have available. In general, multiple pairs or 6V GCs sounds good on paper (one pair could come with some risk; two Fireflys could well be better in that case), but in any case you'd have to compare footprint and height and so forth to whatever space you have.

And then you need a sufficiently-capable charger. MaineSail posted recently (or maybe it was in the other forum) that Lifeline recommends a minimum of 20% charging capacity, so you'd want a 160 amp charger (minimum) for an 800 Ah bank of Lifelines. Mastervolt probably publishes their own recommendations, to check those closely.

Ref your thoughts about AGMs vs. FLAs: simplified physical maintenance can be nifty, but the most significant trade-off for AGMs is apparently all about your capability to quickly recharge -- to 100% -- after each discharge cycle. Note comments by other respondents; if you can't get there from here due to circumstances, you could well end up just killing AGMs in return for that reduced maintenance thing. And good AGMs are expensive enough that you probably don't want to set yourself up for that. (In general, probably worth reading everything MaineSail ever said here about AGMs first, so you're at least prepared for best decision-making.)

Ref your comment about size, weight comparisons: A Group 31 weighs pretty much what a Group 31 weighs. A GC weighs pretty much what a GC weighs. And the BCI sizes are pretty much standard; an AGM G31 and a FLA G31 are the same dimensions, and so forth. Yes, there can be some relatively minor weight differences between types and brands within a specific BCI group, but not huge enough to make FLAs or AGMs more or less attractive just because of that. Comparing a flooded 8D to a G31 or 6V AGM would be different, of course...

-Chris

Hey, the 800ah is aiming me toward the 50% usage bracket. The charger/inverters I am looking at are in the 120 to 150 amp charging range. I was looking at the Freedom SW Series 3000 Watt Inverter/Charger but I am hearing that Xantrex is not a good company anymore.

[a64pilot]

If you consume 200 AH a day and don't have significant Solar, you will be running a generator every day or likely every other day at least.
Figure with a properly sized charger 5 to 6 hours to charge your bank of AGM's from 50%. You should be able to do this with a $1,000 Honda, a diesel genset figure they start at 5 times that amount and one that you will run every day, likely 10 times that amount.
It's really tough to make a case of not going with Solar, as much as you can fit.

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

If you consume 200 AH a day and don't have significant Solar, you will be running a generator every day or likely every other day at least.
Figure with a properly sized charger 5 to 6 hours to charge your bank of AGM's from 50%. You should be able to do this with a $1,000 Honda, a diesel genset figure they start at 5 times that amount and one that you will run every day, likely 10 times that amount.
It's really tough to make a case of not going with Solar, as much as you can fit.

My thoughts are to have solar and wind, with the generator picking up the slack and filling in on large current draws. My problem with solar is the are intrusive on a boat. They take up a lot of space and block access to areas of the boat. My Alberg is a yawl so that further limits the places solar can be placed. I am thinking two flexible solar panels on top of the dodger, and a wind generator. Adding to that a high output alternator and/or diesel generator. I have owned the honda generators, and had great luck with them. I however don't like having to carry gas on the boat anymore than is really needed, that's why I like the diesel generator idea. If I thought a high output alternator would pick up the slack I would be happy with that.

[sailorboy1]

Personally I think you seem to feel you need a major power plant on your boat. I'm going to give you advise that will save you trouble and money, here it goes:

Go cruising a while before you believe all the internet forum advice for how much battery capacity, how much charging capacity, and how the charging capacity needs to be divided among the various source choices!

If you go 400AH of battery, 200-300W solar, a 80amp alternator, and maybe a little Honda you will be just fine. And after a while you will know how to add to it in a way that fits your cruising style.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

Hey, the 800ah is aiming me toward the 50% usage bracket.

Even 400 Ah/day is still a lot.

(Not including aircon, major electric cooking, or hot water, of course.)

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

My thoughts are to have solar and wind, with the generator picking up the slack and filling in on large current draws. ... I however don't like having to carry gas on the boat anymore than is really needed, that's why I like the diesel generator idea. If I thought a high output alternator would pick up the slack I would be happy with that.

For AGMs, where 100% recharging after each discharge cycle is important, think I'd look at that slightly inverted: diesel genset for bulk charging and large current draws (and for aircon and hot water when necessary)... and solar and/or wind picking up the slack.

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Go cruising a while before you believe all the internet forum advice for how much battery capacity, how much charging capacity, and how the charging capacity needs to be divided among the various source choices!

Yep, agree, using a boat a lot first -- as is -- makes that whole energy budget thing easier to figure out... which in turn makes it easier to develop the concept for way forward.

Took me about a year to work out our basic way ahead, then another 6-7 years to gradually put it all into action... working out some details along the way... including some slight tweaks to the plan as I've learned more... and mostly without replacing anything that was (or is) actually still working OK. The only person on board who notices much of a difference is me; everything is pretty much transparent to everyone else.

-Chris

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Personally I think you seem to feel you need a major power plant on your boat. I'm going to give you advise that will save you trouble and money, here it goes:

Go cruising a while before you believe all the internet forum advice for how much battery capacity, how much charging capacity, and how the charging capacity needs to be divided among the various source choices!

If you go 400AH of battery, 200-300W solar, a 80amp alternator, and maybe a little Honda you will be just fine. And after a while you will know how to add to it in a way that fits your cruising style.

Thanks, this was my original idea. Then I learned I need a new charger/inverter, I already new the small battery bank would not be enough. So I started thinking, does it make sense to pay $800 for a charger inverter, get smaller solar panels, get a smaller generator, then have to upgrade everything if I decide it's not enough? Buy once and cry once? I have never spent good money on a good tool and regretted it. I have however spent little money on cheap tools and regretted it right away. This is not saying you are not right in your thinking, more of a this is my thoughts. Maybe I should look at a system that would be expanded easily, start with an 400ah battery bank and 1500 watt charger/inverter that can be stacked to a 800ah 2 x 1500 watt charger/inverter.

[Vasco]

You engine cannot handle a 180 amp alternator. I don't see how you can use 200 ah a day.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Even 400 Ah/day is still a lot.

(Not including aircon, major electric cooking, or hot water, of course.)






For AGMs, where 100% recharging after each discharge cycle is important, think I'd look at that slightly inverted: diesel genset for bulk charging and large current draws (and for aircon and hot water when necessary)... and solar and/or wind picking up the slack.




Yep, agree, using a boat a lot first -- as is -- makes that whole energy budget thing easier to figure out... which in turn makes it easier to develop the concept for way forward.

Took me about a year to work out our basic way ahead, then another 6-7 years to gradually put it all into action... working out some details along the way... including some slight tweaks to the plan as I've learned more... and mostly without replacing anything that was (or is) actually still working OK. The only person on board who notices much of a difference is me; everything is pretty much transparent to everyone else.

-Chris

Yea I think we are of the same idea with the solar, wind and generator usage, just saying it in different ways. The system I am looking at monitor the batteries and AC usage, and start the generator as needed for large loads or to fully charge the batteries as needed.

My original thought were to leave it and let it fail me before looking to replace anything. Now that I know I need a charger/inverter, I am just thinking it makes more sense to add to the cost of replacing it and make it an upgrade to the boat.

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by Vasco

You engine cannot handle a 180 amp alternator. I don't see how you can use 200 ah a day.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Why do they make 200 amp alternators then? I am guessing the 200ah day all depends on what you are doing in a day. I am planning to to able to run my refrigerator most of the time, two laptop computers, VHF radios, coffee pot ( I am a two pot a day guy) charging cell phones, tablets, running stereo, anchor lights, navigational equipment, AC as needed, TV for evening entertainment, charging cameras, flashlights and so on.