Options for installing a generator on a 1978 H27

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

AC and dorm fridge? And here I was, thinking how it was pretty much impossible to just support a decent 100 watt (output) rated stereo on anything under 40' OAL. Even a simple cooler on a 27' boat is going to need some diligent work on heavy custom insulation and careful choice of capacity, if you plan to stay off the dock for more than overnight. That's just the way it is. Ditto on the solar: The only way to get that much area is a custom bimini top, probably extending way aft of the cockpit in order to get it out of any boom shadow. Fortunately marine heads don't need electricity. I'd agree with the wife, that a real head with room to stand up is a non-negotiable point though. But you might as well break down and tell her the sad news: If she wants a proper galley, you're gonna need twice as much boat. Sacrifice, do it for her.(G)

Well, our marine head has a macerating toilet, so will need 12V power for it. The bimini will have to be custom because I am going to have to make it myself (have the steel tubing, the machine to sew the canvas, and time). I also don't have much cash, what with just having half a kidney removed and in and out of the hospital lately.

No, we are stuck with our current vessel for now, so I am attempting to make the best of a horrible at times situation. I know this boat is basically a large daysailor, and probably meant for that and weekends, maybe some coastal cruising. I know it was not designed specifically for liveaboard use, though some have managed to make that work with minimalist initiatives of various sorts. I am just in a "it is already mostly cleared out, the bottom work is done, and now I am installing the internals and want them to fit my desired use if possible" stage.

I was thinking about the fridge a lot because there is a place already in the counter that was set up at the manufacturer originally, to be used as a cold chest of sorts, they just did not insulate it very well. I can fix the insulation issue though. I was just trying to figure a way to make best use of it with a little self sufficiency that can get us at least a little double duty, while removing the less than useful dorm fridge and the AC unit that currently is just in the way most of the time, though it works well when I energize it at port, that's all. For all I care, I could haul it home and leave it in my window there. Might even be more useful, in fact. Fridge is already home at this point, for now at least.

I also have a hole in the countertop with a cover screwed onto it, where the original alcohol stove went. That contraption will not be reinstalled, but I was considering putting the 700 watt microwave under that cover, in the void below, which has no door covering that cabinet base. The micro would be available but not in the way and securely attached when I was done. If I did all this, the fridge is gone, the AC is gone, and we can cook with the charcoal grill if not raining and in the micro if raining. The sinks work. The toilet needs installed, new in a box at the moment, and I need to find a holding tank someplace.

I do not like the thought of the noisy generator either, but happened to have it available, that's all. I was wondering how others had addressed this in a boat of this rather small for cruising size.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SailingFan

Thanks Pizzazz for the blessing and the reply. My tiny engine is 8 hp though. The alternator is new, but only about 30 or 35 amps output. I suppose that would help, but not sure if it would help enough.

Then your engine is perfect for running a large alternator. If you are taking 1kW of power off at moderate RPM that is plenty enough load for that engine.

It's a diesel, right?

Does your engine take a standard small case alternator? If so, then you can just replace the standard one with something like this:

PowerMax Small Case

In order not to overload the engine when you need max power for propulsion, you can use the Balmar regulator which has a switch to cut out the alternator when needed. ("small engine mode")


Taking that one step further would be to engineer a PTO and bracket and drive system for a SECOND large case alternator. You can generate 2 or 3kW like that.

You would not use the second alternator when using the engine for propulsion. You would just go into generator mode.

This is worth spending some effort on -- you can end up with a first class diesel DC generator at moderate cost and little added weight.

[brianlara 3]

Hey Sailing Fan.
My boat is miniscule compared to yours !! ( but with a wide & useful poop deck/seat).
I'm finding all of these posts just a little hard to follow because I'm at times slow.
But for what it's worth, even if I'm repeating others, you might just be interested in my system because I've been on the hook 24 x 7 for 7 years and the system I have has been functioning as intended. You might also look at my bio as it should tell you something.
First, I notice no mention of you having / planning a battery charger. ??
First, my power consumption greatly condensed.
A 24" TV with Ocean Talk hd tuner 60 watts for app 6 -8 hrs every day.
Engel 38 litre freezer mode @ minus 13 deg C. 32 watts 12hrs / day.
Anchor windlass pulling 250 ft of 5/16 chain 900 watts 2 or 3 times per week.
Nutri Bullet used for frozen strawberry smoothies 650 watts most days
Normal nav gear, 7" simrad plotter, rate gyro, vhf, simrad ap24 a/p controller, simrad tp32 pilot
Every a/c & d.c. power tool imaginable. Pressure fresh and salt water at sink, multiple Caframo fans, all led lighting.
Now for power supply:
1600 continuous petrol/gas generator sitting on the poop over the transom. (canvas jacket).
480 ah agm
60 amp battery charger.
1x 135 w solar panel (above the poop as a sitting headroom targa)
1000w pure sine inverter.
No engine alt because this boat runs an outboard in a sealed and blown (jabsco 40 watts) compartment in what you would think was one of the cockpit lockers.
90% of my power comes from the generator driven Sterling 12/60 charger. The solar does little and if wind did much I'd have one. But....lots of solar and ditto wind would'nt come close to my battery charger running for 90 minutes a day. Solar helps a bit, wind would too but the 60 amps from the charger will always be my main source @ app 1 litre per day ??? I don't take much notice. I carry 150 litres of gasoline and a 20 lb & a 10lb bottle of propane.
Nobody ever hears my gererator because it is too quiet...no fumes, it's hanging off the back.
Sorry for the ramble but maybe what works well for might be useful for you.
And my next generator will only ever be Honda. Yamaha are excellent but bloody hard to service because if configuration.

[Seadaddler]

Big alternator steals too much HP but I would add free solar and maybe add wind
and some kind of portable ref 12 volt/110 .
2000 Honda is very low noise and see them on boats all the time.
Nick

[SailingFan]

Brianlara 3, I do have a couple battery chargers and a float charger/maintainer (something in the milliamp range), but these three devices require electricity to run, thus necessitating a generation of electricity to begin with. This means solar (which can charge directly without the charger in the loop), an alternator (which charges directly without a charger in the loop), or some other form of generator (which also can charge directly), each using a form of controller (like my solar does).

Hence, unless I am tied up to shore power someplace, a charger is useless on the boat. Those three chargers still occupy space, however, and probably need to be removed, or at least two do.

The Honda option seems to be a likely winner, but will be tough under my current financial circumstances. Too bad my big Onan just is so huge and loud... The really sad part is that it is already paid for and it functions in its role just fine. Crap... I hate to have to trade a 6500 peak watt generator for a 2000 watt one. Especially important in this case because I am wanting to move up in boat size eventually, and that beast would then become handy.

I am considering placing the solar panels as overhead shade on a semi-permanent dodger/bimini arrangement, thus getting double service from them. That also gets them off the cabin top, where they occupy a great deal of real estate and also try to cut you as you walk around to the foredeck with their aluminum frames.

Yes, I have a bit to go... All simple to do stuff, no cash, and some available hours. I don't currently have propane, and really there is noplace on board already to legally/safely store it. As with the generator, ventilation becomes an issue, and I am pushing my luck with the gasoline for the outboard. The inboard is diesel, and I have an installed fuel tank for that. I am considering installation of a gasoline fuel tank, however, because the quarter-berth is much like an MRI tube, and my wife won't use it, I likely won't, and it is more a confinement tunnel than a sailor's rack in use.

It would, however, be a dandy place for a fuel tank that is opposite the side of the current diesel tank. It would also remove all those gas cans from my decks and bring the COG down in the sailboat instead of on deck (always worthwhile, in my book). I may toss another water tank in there as well, if I can ensure the boat balance is not too drastically altered with that. There is room for these tanks as well as a locker of sorts, and I would get my backrest for the seated Nav table that way, using the door closure I would fabricate as a support for the back cushion (which I also would need to fabricate).

My dilemma is that I know so much of this equipment is useful if placed in efficient service, but I am trying to place the equipment most efficiently so that even if it is not optimal, I can get to where I want to be affordably, because this equipment, even though not top shelf, is already in inventory, or at least excessively close at hand with minor alterations, and the boat is currently in transitional state as far as interior goes anyway. I have the freedom to make the changes without tearing things out, for the most part. I really am about to start installing cabinetry and space utility solutions, and these systems go in, or at least should be planned, before that happens. However, that is now.

[brianlara 3]

Sailing Fan, I originally trained as a mechanic and so gasoline doesn't bother me at all. So much so that I have a 50 litre gas tank strapped to the cockpit floor. The other 100 litres is in jerries strapped to the solid lifelines.
BUT THERE IS NO WAY I would have a gas tank below decks. Far too great a risk.
My propane stove, when in Tasmania in winter, will provide cabin heat, potential risk but managed well. I keep acetone and thinners in plastic containers below decks, carefully....I sometimes have found myself brazing 316 s/s below decks....but never would I put a gas tank into a below deck area. TOOO risky, even for me!
Don't even think about it.
Sorry, didn't realise you had an Onan....be real happy about that. Yep, noisey but bloody useful.
Regarding battery bank / charger ratios. First of all, your charger needs to be SMART !!
Second, a useful ratio is best being at least 10%. My bank is 480ah and my charger is 60amp. Good numbers.
That milliamp charger of yours should go. Milliamp chargers damage batteries (others can argue if they wish, I wont respond!)
Thanks for responding to my post by the way. And good luck with the whole kidney/ dollars recovery.
Cheers.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by brianlara 3

I have a 50 litre gas tank strapped to the cockpit floor.

So you are uninsured , right ?

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

So you are uninsured , right ?

NOT taking calculated risks is for people who have mortal fears and few or no practical/ mechanical/ electrical / welding training .
E.G. no smoking on this boat. Welding/ brazing, yes.
But to answer you question, no, not insured. If I imagined that a worst case possible scenario could occur ( more than 1% chance) I wouldn't be here. Nor would I fly, nor eat street food in India ( 4,000 days in India, never been sick).
Most people wouldn't entertain crossing Bass Strait in such a piddling boat as this either. People cross in kayaks every day!!
Some live with debilitating fears......few would do a "Jeanne Socrates "...fear.
After jungle warfare with an inferior rifle (M16...projectile deflection, toy rifle) everything else is a walk in the park. No fear.
Fear breeds errors.
Others can feed the layers and insurance companies. Not for me. If I had an immaculate Passport 40 tomorrow there is no way it would be insured.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by brianlara 3

NOT taking calculated risks is for people who have mortal fears and few or no practical/ mechanical/ electrical / welding training .
E.G. no smoking on this boat. Welding/ brazing, yes.
But to answer you question, no, not insured. If I imagined that a worst case possible scenario could occur ( more than 1% chance) I wouldn't be here. Nor would I fly, nor eat street food in India ( 4,000 days in India, never been sick).
Most people wouldn't entertain crossing Bass Strait in such a piddling boat as this either. People cross in kayaks every day!!
Some live with debilitating fears......few would do a "Jeanne Socrates "...fear.
After jungle warfare with an inferior rifle (M16...projectile deflection, toy rifle) everything else is a walk in the park. No fear.
Fear breeds errors.
Others can feed the layers and insurance companies. Not for me. If I had an immaculate Passport 40 tomorrow there is no way it would be insured.

You sir are awesome. I bow to your vast knowledge, incomparable skills and unsurpassed courage. I just don't want you in a slip next to me

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

You sir are awesome. I bow to your vast knowledge, incomparable skills and unsurpassed courage. I just don't want you in a slip next to me

Possibly I should be offended but I'm not.
Cheers.

[SailingFan]

Hmm.. Sorry, did not mean to get a flame war started, only attempting to figure out what to do with what I already have. Regardless, I thank any and all for suggestions that can offer insights that I can either consider, use, or discard, because you never know what will be most helpful in a given situation. There are always options that come to mind only after consideration of things others have done (and that you may not have). I fully subscribe to this concept, and believe there is a TON of info and experience out there that can assist me.

That said, I am having a hard time understanding how smoking a cigarette on a boat is more dangerous than welding or brazing on one, given that the temperatures involved are so much higher with the metal working equipment than they are on an actively ventilated cigarette ember. It seems logical that the other way around would make more sense. I am not a smoker, though, so it is more idle curiosity, but propane is flammable as well...

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by SailingFan

Hmm.. Sorry, did not mean to get a flame war started, only attempting to figure out what to do with what I already have. Regardless, I thank any and all for suggestions that can offer insights that I can either consider, use, or discard, because you never know what will be most helpful in a given situation. There are always options that come to mind only after consideration of things others have done (and that you may not have). I fully subscribe to this concept, and believe there is a TON of info and experience out there that can assist me.

That said, I am having a hard time understanding how smoking a cigarette on a boat is more dangerous than welding or brazing on one, given that the temperatures involved are so much higher with the metal working equipment than they are on an actively ventilated cigarette ember. It seems logical that the other way around would make more sense. I am not a smoker, though, so it is more idle curiosity, but propane is flammable as well...

Good question SF. First off, I have never been a smoker.
One of the reasons for the no smoking policy is a very simple one. If I decide to use open flames on the boat, be they propane stove or brazing etc...is that EVERY TIME I ignite a flame ( or create even an unlikely electrical arc whilst working inside the switchboard), I mentally, everytime, assess the situation on the boat. EG, have I been using acetone and is the rag not only now dry but also is it well down wind of ignition sources....is the vent for the Sceptre fuel tank closed? Are both propane bottles valves closed (I have a Gas Fuse on both bottles).
Similarly, are tins of varnish in a position where abrasion could cause a leak?
Potentially lethal fumes such as carbon monoxide, gas, propane etc require a very concentrated air: fuel ratio to become risky.
The reason or one of them) for the no smoking policy is because others aren't aware that a fire/explosion at sea can ruin their day. I don't want to have to watch what people do.
Despite my stove having thermo-couples, such components can fail and so if someone wanted to light my stove I'd be eye balling the ignition until the burners were burning efficiently.
In summary: I know what I'm doing but most others are unwittingly outside their comfort zones when on a boat.
So, SF, was this a satisfactory explanation.
I got to age 70, doing what many would see as risky things, by bein only HALF stupid.
This next one will kill you (no pun).
When i was an 18 year old apprentice a 40 year old tradesman had me hang under the bonnet of a customers car with him. The car had "water in the carburettor" symptoms.
This car had driven in off the street only a minute earlier.
This mechanic removed the air cleaner in 5 seconds. It was a six cly "in-line" ohv motor. So under the air cleaner was the carburettor, bolted to the inlet manifold, which in turn was bolted to the (seriously hot) cast iron exhaust manifold.
So then James pulled a stumpy screw driver out of his pocket and in 5 seconds removed the drain plug from the bottom of the Stromberg carburettor. The whole bowl full of petrol gushed over his hand and sizzled and steamed on the effectively red hot exhaust, ALMOST an explosion of fumes. I had no idea what he planned so to say I was shocked is an understatement.
He explained, "Ringo, the motor isn't running, the generator isn't arcing on it's commutator, there are no flames/sparks and so nothing will happen". Nothing happened.
The air cleaner was back on within 3 minutes and the driver was allowed to start the car after fifteen minutes ( open/ventilated hood) and he drove off. James had probably pulled what people may love to call a stumt, maybe a few hundred times during his career.
Whenever I had to introduce an under hood fuel leak for carburettor/fuel pump removal etc I ALWAYS (hundreds of times) I had a CO2 extinguisher ten feet off to one side.....but I never ever did get to pull a pin.
It's all about air:fuel ratios and potential ignition sources (passers-by smoking when smoking was more wide spread)
People fear the unknown. And fear can cost lives, seen it !!
Curiosity allayed SF?