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Old 30-07-2020, 07:51   #31
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

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Originally Posted by Davy J View Post
Well, I guess that means you live without air conditioning then...........

You do know that if you are running something electric at your home, including A/C, someone, somewhere, is probably burning something to make that happen........
Right??? How do people think grid electricity is harmless to the environment? It’s awful.

And if this “speechless” poster has a home at all or a car, well, he’d better just take a seat since he has a carbon footprint an order of magnitude higher than mine.

My boat is actually super green. It’ll just be running on solar well over 90% of the time. However, every once in a while you need climate control. I don’t do marinas so I am 100% off grid. Off grid climate control in a 50’x25’ boat is serious business. A generator is a requirement.

But the best climate control of all is to keep on snowbirding like I have been doing for decades.

You don’t fight the weather patterns. You migrate naturally with them (if it’s feasible in your work life).

Then, for the few weeks a year you need climate control, you don’t worry and just turn it on.
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Old 30-07-2020, 08:00   #32
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Many of us do.
Now currently I am in a Marina so I do not, but more and more grid power is becoming renewables, and even the plants that do burn something do so much, much more cleanly than any generator.
Generators, at least portable ones have no emissions controls that I’m aware of and compared to engines that do, they are horrible polluters.

Way long ago apparently barbecue grills way outpaced automobiles as the largest source of air pollution in the Los Angles valley and according to the US EPA a new car is 99% cleaner than one manufactured in 1970.
Now what 99% cleaner means I don’t know.

Running a generator to run AC quickly becomes untenable, it’s oil changes every week, and huge amounts of fuel used and your racking up hours on the generator at a phenomenal rate. It’s cheaper I believe to buy a slip and plug in.

The clean air act is one of the few success stories, too bad we eliminated CAFE standards, because that was working too.
All 100% accurate.

Luckily, my climate control solution is just for a few weeks a year or I’d definitely feel guilty.

I struggle already with these decisions. I have the breathing issue. Severe allergic asthma to none other than particulate air pollution. So, I fight hard to do my part to keep my contribution to that down.

The most crazy part is I need to be in air conditioning or be wearing an n95 or p100 mask when particulates are above 50ppm or I can’t breathe.

So, the air pollution part hits home like crazy with me.

Having the air conditioning is partially a heath issue in my case, yet having it contributes to what causes me to not be able to breathe.

Very difficult situation.

So the boat has the capability to run AC, but hopefully it won’t be too often. That’s another argument for EFI for sure.
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Old 30-07-2020, 08:31   #33
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

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Right??? How do people think grid electricity is harmless to the environment? Itís awful.

Many places now use renewal forms of energy production. Hydro electric dams are a thing. Wind turbines are a thing. Solar farms are a thing.


I agree that it may not be like that everywhere but you can't speak in such broad terms any more.
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Old 30-07-2020, 08:34   #34
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
It probably depends a bit on the boat as well. My aft cabin doesn't ventilate great without a lot of wind, so it takes longer than the rest of the boat to cool down when the outside temperature starts to drop. That might be why I find the A/C more helpful there.
I think thatís the difference, our boat is very well ventilated and we cruise where there is a lot of wind, often more than we want and Iím closing hatches, I cut a few pieces of 3/4Ē PVC pipe so that I can only open hatches a couple of inches due to excessive ventilation if they are fully open.

My ACís are for Marina use, otherwise I donít think I would have them.
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Old 30-07-2020, 08:36   #35
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

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Originally Posted by NaClyDog View Post
Many places now use renewal forms of energy production. Hydro electric dams are a thing. Wind turbines are a thing. Solar farms are a thing.


I agree that it may not be like that everywhere but you can't speak in such broad terms any more.
Not in the USA. Here are the exact figures of USA power generation sources in 2019 according to the US Government’s Energy Information Administration website. But the minute I can buy a Kilopower reactor for the boat, I’m ready!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilopower
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Old 30-07-2020, 08:50   #36
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

During the day a large , with side shades , sun cover does a great job.

At sunset hosing the boat down to get the hull to sea water temp works well.

Finally a small DC computer fan set to lift air from the bilge (its sea water temp) can help in places where the evening air does not cool off.

I would chose the inverter Honda as it will operate at only the RPM required to operate your equipment , not scream along at some fixed RPM.
This lowers the fuel burn/noise/wear a great deal.
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Old 30-07-2020, 08:53   #37
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Not in the USA. Here are the exact figures of USA power generation sources in 2019 according to the US Governmentís Energy Information Administration website. But the minute I can buy a Kilopower reactor for the boat, Iím ready!

Many places = not just the USA. May be hard to believe for some, I know.


Our med / long term plans involve moving everything to lithium iron phosphate, solar, hydro generation and possibly wind. Getting rid of propane / generator and possibly gas outboard if we can find something reasonable.
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Old 30-07-2020, 09:09   #38
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

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Originally Posted by NaClyDog View Post
Many places = not just the USA. May be hard to believe for some, I know.


Our med / long term plans involve moving everything to lithium iron phosphate, solar, hydro generation and possibly wind. Getting rid of propane / generator and possibly gas outboard if we can find something reasonable.
I almost guessed you were from Canada given the hydro part of your post.

My only response is that Iím jealous and I hope you donít build a wall to keep us out.

Iím in the USA for a while still. No remote work from other time zones possible just yet. Eventually...
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Old 30-07-2020, 09:11   #39
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

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Originally Posted by FAST FRED View Post
During the day a large , with side shades , sun cover does a great job.

At sunset hosing the boat down to get the hull to sea water temp works well.

Finally a small DC computer fan set to lift air from the bilge (its sea water temp) can help in places where the evening air does not cool off.

I would chose the inverter Honda as it will operate at only the RPM required to operate your equipment , not scream along at some fixed RPM.
This lowers the fuel burn/noise/wear a great deal.
You have a good point here.

If itís only necessary to have one of the air conditioners on, or even during cycling of both air conditioners, there will be plenty of times we drop to a lower power consumption.

The quiet achieved from the Honda dropping RPM to match the DC load internally is a great feature.
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Old 30-07-2020, 09:53   #40
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

One other random thought. I assume you have outboards so this wouldn't work, but if you have inboards you could rig a PTO onto you could combine one of your prime movers into a very large generator coupled with a large lithium ion bank. You could charge the bank in an hour or two, and if you make it big enough run your AC for a good chunk of the night off the silent batteries.
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Old 30-07-2020, 09:59   #41
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

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Originally Posted by redneckrob View Post
One other random thought. I assume you have outboards so this wouldn't work, but if you have inboards you could rig a PTO onto you could combine one of your prime movers into a very large generator coupled with a large lithium ion bank. You could charge the bank in an hour or two, and if you make it big enough run your AC for a good chunk of the night off the silent batteries.
That would be cool!

But youíre assuming correctly. Sheís got outboards that retract completely out of the water for fast sailing and easy maintenance.
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Old 30-07-2020, 10:38   #42
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NaClyDog View Post
Many places now use renewal forms of energy production. Hydro electric dams are a thing. Wind turbines are a thing. Solar farms are a thing.

I agree that it may not be like that everywhere but you can't speak in such

broad terms any more.

You are right.


In Finland, more than 90% of electrical power is produced by non-carbon generating sources -- wind, biomass, hydro, and nuclear, and the Finns are building new nuclear power plants to get that to 100%. Electrical power in Finland is not only nearly carbon-free, it's the cheapest in Europe. That's the future.



Other Nordic countries are similar. Norway I think is nearly 100% hydro, Sweden is over 40% nuclear. Denmark has no nuclear, but has huge proportion of wind power.



The big story in electrical power generation is the rapid development of wind turbine technology. This now vies with nuclear as the cheapest source of power and it might get even cheaper.



There is no longer any good reason to burn hydrocarbons to generate electrical power other than amortizing existing fixed assets.



I'm with Chotu on the micro nuclear plant. I'd give my eye tooth for one of those. Would revolutionize off grid cruising. Not just power production but propulsion. Just imagine the silent nuclear-electric drive. Wow.
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Old 30-07-2020, 10:46   #43
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

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All 100% accurate.

Luckily, my climate control solution is just for a few weeks a year or Iíd definitely feel guilty.

I struggle already with these decisions. I have the breathing issue. Severe allergic asthma to none other than particulate air pollution. So, I fight hard to do my part to keep my contribution to that down.

The most crazy part is I need to be in air conditioning or be wearing an n95 or p100 mask when particulates are above 50ppm or I canít breathe.

So, the air pollution part hits home like crazy with me.

Having the air conditioning is partially a heath issue in my case, yet having it contributes to what causes me to not be able to breathe.

Very difficult situation.

So the boat has the capability to run AC, but hopefully it wonít be too often. Thatís another argument for EFI for sure.

You may want to investigate electrostatic air filters, the real ones that cost $$$, not the fake ones made from fishing line that donít do squat, but there are some extremely efficient air filters out there, just some cost money, but basically clean room quality filters do exist, and are cleanable.
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Old 30-07-2020, 10:54   #44
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

Oh, and there is much made about the Honda’s RPM varying saving lots of fuel.
I have a tach on mine and can tell you the much extolled fuel savings is more marketing than anything else
First a EU2000I “idles” at 3000 RPM, no power production = 3000 RPM.
Secondly it makes rated power at 4300 RPM, that’s on its placard take a look. So from idle to full continuous power is just 1300 RPM difference, it does make a difference sound wise, but I suspect the actual power that it makes makes most of the difference in both fuel consumption and noise.
Now pull more than rated power and it will turn as high as 5,000 RPM, I’ve seen it, and that’s when they are LOUD, but your exceeding max power, the little Honda will do it, but not at it’s claimed sound level and fuel burn etc.

Some generators do have catalyst I wouldn’t be surprised if the Onan did as its target market is RV’s. I’m sure it has a spark arrestor too, and I’d bet the construction generators don’t.

On edit, looking at its specs, I bet it does, it does have evaporative emission controls etc. I bet it has an exhaust cat as well.
https://www.norwall.com/products/Cum...5.5HGJAB-6755/

It’s also a 90 degree V twin, and a 90 degree V twin is in perfect primary balance which makes them among the smoothest engine designs there are.

It also appears to be a dual fuel engine already, depending on what hoops you have to jump through and expense, propane may be worth considering, propane burns exceedingly clean, oil and spark plugs will last a very long time running on propane as there is almost no carbon deposits from propane.
https://www.norwall.com/product_pdfs..._spec_2018.pdf
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Old 30-07-2020, 11:06   #45
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Re: Non-Marine Generator Choices?

On the RPM thing, the Onan in question runs at 2400 RPM. The Honda 7000 ranges from 2400 - 3600 according to the book. So no advantage to the Honda there. In theory, the smaller engine and inverter setup will be more efficient under light load, but it'll be about the same or worse under heavy load. From the published numbers, the Honda is slightly more efficient, but not much.

Engine-wise, the Onan will win for durability by a long shot. It's pressure lubed with a filter, while the Honda is splash lubed.

The Onan's engine is also more powerful (12.9 hp vs 11.7), so even though they're both rated at 5500 watts continuous and the Honda is rated for 7000 watts maximum, the Onan will likely have an easier time starting a big A/C unit. Onan specs that with a 2500 watt load already on the unit, it should start a pair of 13.5k BTU A/Cs in 100* weather.

By not having the inverter unit, wheels, etc. the Onan is also physically smaller than the Honda, even though it's a few pounds heavier.
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