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Old 30-12-2020, 05:36   #46
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

90% of the work in these projects is the up front planning.

Speaking with BattleBorn, they say the 300Ah bank will support the windlass/bow-thruster operation, especially if the engine is running.

I keep coming back to this as removing the battery up front and moving the 300Ah house battery bank from the stern locker to amidships seems to make sense, weight & balance wise. One less battery to install/maintain. More than likely a 4th 100Ah battery will be added in a year.

Using this calculator assuming 14 ft cable run from the LI house batteries ("LIHB") amidships at 13V to the 370A windlass/bow-thruster, 4/0 cable would yield a 4% drop to 12.5V.
The windlass draw is 120A but would be for as long as 1-2 minutes.
Again, in both cases, the engine would be running, so the LIHB would be charging.

It appears this would work. I would also feel better about the windlass operation from the house bank, as that draw is lower but more deep cycle in nature.

Decided to keep the engine start battery, as the LIHB needs somewhere for the Alternator to keep a load when the BMS shuts off charging to the LIHB.

Now the question about charging the LIHB from the Alternator and LA starter battery.

Upgrading to a 170A Balmar alternator (XT-DF-170-J10-KIT) that comes with a MC-614 external voltage regulator, which should be able to put out 150A continuous. Tried to call Balmar to discuss but they are closed until 1/4/21. Spoke to Peter Kennedy at PKYS about it. I can't recommend him enough. He steered me away from a 200A alternator. Sent him pictures of the engine compartment and he thinks there would be cooling issues, so 170A it is (ordered from him). He also recommended using 3 Victron DC-DC 30A chargers in parallel to charge the LIHB.

The distance from the engine/alternator/starter-battery to the LIHB would be 18 feet.

As recommended will use 3 Victron Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-30A (360W) Non-isolated DC-DC chargers in parallel, which comes to 90A continuous to the LI house batteries.

The spec sheet recommends 6 AWG on each DC-DC charger, so three 6 AWG positive cable runs from the DC-DC charger to the LI house batteries. The ground would be the 4/0 cable running from the bow to the engine. The output voltage of the DC-DC chargers can be increased to 15V so a 2.84% drop would yield 14.6V at the LI house batteries.
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Old 11-01-2021, 16:53   #47
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Here's a question which Battleborn hasn't answered.

If there are 3 100Ah batteries in the house bank, is it better to wire each battery, using equal length cables, to a busbar (3 connections to the busbar)? Or, is it better to wire the batteries in parallel together, with one positive cable connected to the busbar?
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Old 11-01-2021, 17:22   #48
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

I think the buss bar connection plan makes more sense. Very easy to isolate a problem battery or add more capacity. If the buss bars have a few more connection points also gives somewhere to add additional loads.
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Old 11-01-2021, 17:46   #49
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by scfoster View Post
Here's a question which Battleborn hasn't answered.

If there are 3 100Ah batteries in the house bank, is it better to wire each battery, using equal length cables, to a busbar (3 connections to the busbar)? Or, is it better to wire the batteries in parallel together, with one positive cable connected to the busbar?
If it is serving as a single bank, the common practice is directly linking in parallel the batteries in the shortest way between each pole and exit with a single line to the main switch, fuse etc.
Any busbar comes further down where you need to start distributing the current to multiple loads.

That’s unless you want to install battery isolator on each. At such case you may need to pull separate line from each battery and use a busbar
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Old 12-01-2021, 02:44   #50
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

I know I am quoting myself. I have attached a pdf from Victron Energy that shows using buss bars. I would use this type of install. You could install terminal fuses on each battery, easily separate a battery for testing or replacement, add or subtract batteries, cabling more easily arranged to avoid interfering with battery installation and removal, and buss bar would be a good point to jump off to other loads.

I get to look at and test a lot of batteries in boats. Batteries set up this way require a lot less study to figure out how to separate for testing. LifePo4 do not require watering but it is remarkable how many FLA battery cabling installs interfere with that process.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bglad View Post
I think the buss bar connection plan makes more sense. Very easy to isolate a problem battery or add more capacity. If the buss bars have a few more connection points also gives somewhere to add additional loads.
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Old 12-01-2021, 03:45   #51
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

I connected my batteries to a busbar with equal length cables and individual isolators and fuses. My setup has some pretty large current draws, so that makes equal resistance to each battery a bit more important. Ideally, this is the way to go for both an equal draw on the batteries, as well as the ability to easily isolate individual batteries.
That said I'd think for most peoples setups directly connecting the batteries in parallel would be ok, just ensure your cables are decently large and that you still have isolation and a fuse or circuit breaker.
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Old 12-01-2021, 06:09   #52
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Thanks for the responses. There is plenty of room to install a busbar to link each battery individually. The picture showing the batteries under the port seating does show how much room there is to do this.

Given the 100Ah BattleBorn batteries, what cable size and fuse would you use for each positive cable to the busbar? The Victron diagram online shows a 175A ANL fuse for each cable.

Here is what Battleborn sent me:

Quote:
When wiring the batteries in parallel I suggest using either 1/0 or 2/0 depending on the runs. In your case when considering the windlass/bow thruster I would think 2/0 should be good for the higher loads and will allow the connection between the batteries and to the busbar to stay at a lower overall operating temp. I do suggest keeping all the cables the same length to ensure even charge and discharge across the battery bank. Rather than fusing each battery I would use one primary catastrophic fuse about a foot off of the positive lead out from the batteries. 400 amp would be the correct size for this fuse.
I'm going to eventually consolidate the one DC distribution panel and two AC panels (one going to the current Xantrex charger/inverter off shore 1 & one for Air Conditioning shore 2) into one panel. This will clean things up and reduce space usage. One of the attached pictures shows the current layout, which will change.

The new Victron Multiplus will go under the chart table. The picture doesn't show how wide the table is. Using blocks of wood to hold the Multiplus sort of in place (it is heavy) was able to ensure it doesn't block leg room. I'm 6'3" (191cm) so wanted to be sure. Even without recessing the Mulitplus, there's plenty of room. Will build an enclosure to ensure the protection of cabling.
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Old 12-01-2021, 14:00   #53
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Attached 3 options for the battery cabling layout with fusing. Option 1 is my preference but am interested in input.
What is not shown is wiring the batteries in parallel to each other with one positive cable going from the batteries to the busbar. That would use a 400A fuse.
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Old 12-01-2021, 14:25   #54
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

We did what Battleborn suggested.
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Old 14-01-2021, 17:34   #55
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Took another stab at the electrical diagram, beginning with a Victron schematic and modifying to come close to what I'm going to do. I'll have 3 DC-DC chargers and the CERBO GC wiring isn't correct.
After reading the Multiplus manual, going to add another 100Ah battery to bring to 400Ah total.
Looking for input on overall design, as well as fusing, breakers and switches.
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Old 15-01-2021, 04:31   #56
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Very nice complete diagram. I'd very much like to read the important notes. Could they be enlarged 2x's somehow?
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Old 15-01-2021, 05:51   #57
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Very nice complete diagram. I'd very much like to read the important notes. Could they be enlarged 2x's somehow?
If you download the pdf, it will scale up and the text is readable.

I'm glad you asked for these, as they are very important and give the sizing requirements and call out the need for MCB/RDC (definition here) to be installed on the output.

Here are the notes from left to right. I didn't put them there... left from the Victron diagram.

Quote:
When operating in inverter mode, the Neutral output of
a inverter/charger must be connected to ground to
guarantee proper functioning of a GFCI or RCD device.
In case of a split phase supply the Neutral also must
be grounded.
The primary Case ground connection from a inverter
charger like a Multi or a Quattro, must be connected to
the Central Negative Busbar of the DC system. Size of
this cable must be identical to connected DC negative.
Quote:
Recommended AC Out-1 cable/breaker size MultiPlus
With Power assist the MultiPlus can add
3KW to the output load when needed.
Together with the adjustable 50A input this
all adds up to the max sum of input and
output current of 50+25=75A. An Earth
leakage device with breaker or a
combination MCB/RCD must be installed
on the output. Cable size must be adjusted
accordingly.
Quote:
Recommended AC Out-2 cable/breaker size MultiPlus
AC Out-2 only is available when power is
present on AC IN. During battery operation
it will be disconnected.
AC Out-2 supports up to 25A.
An Earth leakage device with breaker or a
combination MCB/RCD must be installed
on the output. Cable size must be adjusted
accordingly.
Quote:
Recommended DC cable/fuse size MultiPlus
0-5 m cable length: 4 x 50SQmm, 5-10 m cable
length: 4 x 70SQmm. When used in closed
conduits, cable size should double. Cable length
stands for the distance between the battery and the
MultiPlus connections !!! Recommendations are
without other loads in the system and these also
should be taken into account for proper main
battery, main fuse & main switch cables !!!
Fuse size should be 400A.
Quote:
Recommended AC IN
cable/breaker size
MultiPlus
AC IN must be protected by a circuit
breaker rated at 50A max or less. This
depends heavily on the size of the
connected power source.The input current
must be adjusted to fit the size of the
connected power source.
The breaker and cable size for AC IN
should be adjusted accordingly.
And the obligatory "don't stick your fingers in the socket" warning:

Quote:
WARNING
120 VOLT AC IS EXTREMELY
HAZARDOUS !!!
DO NOT TOUCH ANY LIVE WIRED
PARTS OF THE INSTALLATION !!!
WHEN IN DOUBT, ALWAYS CONSULT
YOUR VICTRON DEALER !!!
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Old 15-01-2021, 17:22   #58
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by scfoster View Post
Took another stab at the electrical diagram, beginning with a Victron schematic and modifying to come close to what I'm going to do. I'll have 3 DC-DC chargers and the CERBO GC wiring isn't correct.
After reading the Multiplus manual, going to add another 100Ah battery to bring to 400Ah total.
Looking for input on overall design, as well as fusing, breakers and switches.

Really coming together nicely!


Can I ask what software you authored this with, and if it might possible to share the source file? I'd like to base my boat's design off this.


Thanks
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Old 15-01-2021, 17:28   #59
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

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Originally Posted by MattPatt View Post
Really coming together nicely!


Can I ask what software you authored this with, and if it might possible to share the source file? I'd like to base my boat's design off this.


Thanks
Good old Adobe Acrobat Pro. No way I would do it from scratch. What I do is modify the Victron pdfs. Very tedious but I work on it during conference calls... beats doodling. Also calms me down, suppressing the urge to choke one or more bloviating idiots.

I'll keep posting pdfs as I modify them.
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Old 16-01-2021, 06:15   #60
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPatt View Post
Can I ask what software you authored this with, and if it might possible to share the source file? I'd like to base my boat's design off this.
On second thought, I'm updating the PowerPoint deck, so many details can be added. Not really possible with pdf editors (at least not easily). Will post the Powerpoint updates along the way.

One reason is the plan to use BEP Pro Installer busbars and components. Peter Kennedy at PKYS.com sells them. Really modular, saving space and allowing for oops' with easy recovery along the way.



https://youtu.be/-U9W3e2CLIk Dammit... forgot how to embed YouTube videos... again.
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