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Old 17-01-2021, 10:33   #76
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

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Originally Posted by scfoster View Post
The Multiplus has a feature where it will draw from the House Battery bank in the case of a current draw that would otherwise overwhelm the 30A breaker. So if the water heater is on and the AirCon (16,000 BTU 34A startup 15A max continuous) starts up, the house battery bank will take up the slack until the initial startup draw decreases.
I think you're saying that with the air conditioning on AC-Out-2, that the Multiplus will provide boost to the water heater on AC-OUT-1, and not trip the shorepower circuit. I don't if the Multiplus will respond to the current draw on AC-OUT-2, as it is not part of the inverter circuit. If it's measuring the total AC input, it should work. More research is needed.

Quote:
Think I'm going to keep the two 30A shore power inlets, along with the Galvanic Isolators. Going to put a switch (BlueSea 1481) in to allow for the AirCon to be powered either from the Shore #1 connection through the Victron Multiplus. When a second 30A shore power connection is available, I can use that and flip the switch so the AirCon is on it's own separate circuit, separate from the Victron Multiplus.
That should work.

Quote:
Anchor Express has the BlueSea 3102100 ELCI breakers for $113each.
That's a good price.
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Old 17-01-2021, 10:50   #77
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

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Originally Posted by MerMike View Post
I think you're saying that with the air conditioning on AC-Out-2, that the Multiplus will provide boost to the water heater on AC-OUT-1, and not trip the shorepower circuit. I don't if the Multiplus will respond to the current draw on AC-OUT-2, as it is not part of the inverter circuit. If it's measuring the total AC input, it should work. More research is needed.
The Victron Service Manual:

Quote:
AC-out-2 (see appendix A)
A second output is available that disconnects its load in the event of battery operation. On these terminals, equipment is connected that may only operate if AC voltage is available on AC-in, e.g. an electric boiler or an air conditioner.
The load on AC-out-2 is disconnected immediately when the MultiPlus switches to battery operation. After AC power becomes available on AC-in, the load on AC-out-2 will be reconnected with a delay of approximately 2 minutes. This to allow a genset to stabilise.
AC-out-2 can support loads of up to 25A. An earth leakage circuit breaker and fuse rated at max. 32A must be connected in series with AC-out-2.
Note: Loads connected to AC-out-2 will be taken into account in the PowerControl / PowerAssist current limit setting. Loads directly connected to the AC supply will not be included in the PowerControl / PowerAssist current limit setting.
What I think all of that means is that PowerAssist is not directly available to AC-out-2, so the 25A limit while connected to shore power is inviolable. But, AC-out-1 will get a boost from the batteries, taking into account the draw from AC-out-2. If that's the case, I'm fine with that.
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Old 17-01-2021, 12:43   #78
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

I'm assuming you're using a 12/3000/120. If so, the a/c is going to exceed the limit on AC-OUT-2 on startup. The Multi has a total input current limit of 50A. Depending on other loads, ambient temperature, voltage drop and inverter efficiency, you may exceed capacity.

I have heard of using a soft start, but I've never used one. I live in the PNW and a/c is not something I've needed to spend much time with.
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Old 17-01-2021, 12:57   #79
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

For visual orientated folks:
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Old 20-01-2021, 13:31   #80
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Everything is a trade-off. Went to the boat (up on the hard) and did a bunch of measuring and sitting, thinking about the install.

The boat only has a single rear starboard cabin with a huge port locker. From the factory, the house bank and engine start battery are located under the rear berth, aft of the transmission and very close to the centerline of the boat.

If I relocate the engine start battery to the front of the engine, I should be able to fit all of the LiFePO4 batteries in the aft cabin. The current Xantrex Inverter/Charger is in the port locker, so that would be a simple swap out, with the battery cable run cutouts already there. So the Victron install would be a LOT easier and cleaner, with a huge bulkhead on which to mount everything not even a meter from the batteries.

The downside is I would have to add a battery (or batteries) forward to power the windlass and bow thruster, along with the wiring and a charger.

This will save me doing a lot of sawing and woodworking in the main cabin.
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Old 21-01-2021, 08:27   #81
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Updated the schematic to reflect a change in plans, 'moving' the house batteries to where the current batteries are located in the rear berth. Will put the Victron Multiplus Inverter/Charger where the current Xantrex unit is located.
Adding a battery up in the forward berth to power the Windlass and Bow Thruster. Have plenty of space to add a second battery if needed, but going to see if one will suffice.
Reducing the planned House bank from 4 to 3 100Ah batteries. The Victron manual calls for 4 batteries but Battleborn insists 300Ah will work just fine, with multiple support staff indicating that's the setup they are personally using (campers not boats). With 3 batteries should be able to put under the berth where the two 200Ah AGM batteries were located with the engine start battery.
The second page of the attached pdf shows the relative locations of components. With the removal of the heavy AGM Lead batteries, the net weight should be pretty close (not including the solar panels) to original.

This was tediously done in MS PowerPoint. If anyone wants the original file, pm me or email scott.foster AT me.com
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Old 21-01-2021, 09:04   #82
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Looking good. (In Darth Vader voice) The PowerPoint force is strong with this one.

Keep in mind that with more than one shore power inlet, do not connect the neutrals aboard the boat. That happens at the pedestal or transformer. A fault on one could energize the other neutral.

You still need a case ground from the Multiplus to your AC panel ground . Since you have two AC panels you need to connect them both.

How are you planning to identify your cabling? I took me a few tries to find a label format that was readable and flexible enough for various sizes. I picked up a P-Touch E500 so I could use the heat shrink sleeves, but it turned out I was not disciplined enough to use them consistently in the midst of construction. I ended up using a wrap type adhesive label with a cover of clear Gorilla Tape. I also started out trying to describe the purpose if the wire on the label but that didn't work for anything under 10 AWG. I ended up with an index of cables with a description and a corresponding ID on the wiring diagram.

Looks like you're getting close. Good luck with construction!
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Old 21-01-2021, 09:42   #83
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

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Originally Posted by MerMike View Post
Keep in mind that with more than one shore power inlet, do not connect the neutrals aboard the boat. That happens at the pedestal or transformer. A fault on one could energize the other neutral.
On a couple of manufacturers sites, I've specifically seen two shore power inlets combined into one Galvanic Isolator. The just purchased ProMariner, 22074 ProSafe FS 60 Galvanic Isolator specifically states "ProSafe FS60 for (1) 50 Amp or (2) 30 Amp Shore Cord Applications". The manual is attached, showing the wiring on page 4. Also saw a Victron diagram somewhere showing the same thing.

Quote:
You still need a case ground from the Multiplus to your AC panel ground . Since you have two AC panels you need to connect them both.
Roger that.

Quote:
How are you planning to identify your cabling? I took me a few tries to find a label format that was readable and flexible enough for various sizes. I picked up a P-Touch E500 so I could use the heat shrink sleeves, but it turned out I was not disciplined enough to use them consistently in the midst of construction. I ended up using a wrap type adhesive label with a cover of clear Gorilla Tape. I also started out trying to describe the purpose if the wire on the label but that didn't work for anything under 10 AWG. I ended up with an index of cables with a description and a corresponding ID on the wiring diagram
Bought a DYMO labeler as the old P-Touch was on it's last legs. Agree about not doing the heat shrink labeling.. becomes a pain and one forgets to do it. Given the aviation background and having survived a few in-flight fires, I'm pretty particular about labeling stuff. What's there now is just numeric in one location with no key to figure out what's what.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Pro-Safe Galvanic Isolator 369753-39335.pdf (1,019.9 KB, 10 views)
File Type: pdf PRM22074.pdf (40.9 KB, 8 views)
File Type: pdf 353133-36043.pdf (44.7 KB, 8 views)
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Old 21-01-2021, 09:43   #84
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Again, thanks for the feedback. A LOT easier to make fixes now than once installed.
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Old 21-01-2021, 12:51   #85
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Found it. I knew I'd seen a wiring diagram for the BlueSea 3117 Dual ELCI box.
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File Type: pdf BlueSea ELCI 3117 980013150.pdf (911.2 KB, 16 views)
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Old 21-01-2021, 21:22   #86
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by scfoster View Post
On a couple of manufacturers sites, I've specifically seen two shore power inlets combined into one Galvanic Isolator. The just purchased ProMariner, 22074 ProSafe FS 60 Galvanic Isolator specifically states "ProSafe FS60 for (1) 50 Amp or (2) 30 Amp Shore Cord Applications". The manual is attached, showing the wiring on page 4. Also saw a Victron diagram somewhere showing the same thing.
I was speaking to connecting the neutrals, which should not be done. The grounds should be connected. As noted above, they can share the galvanic isolator. You'll size the wire and GI for both.
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Old 22-01-2021, 06:11   #87
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Now I need to figure out all the wire sizing, routing and length, along with the size and types of the breakers & fuses.
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Old 22-01-2021, 10:19   #88
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

scfoster,

Thank you for being so thorough and documenting everything, its a very good case to follow. Additionally I've appreciated the photos with notes showing how you are using your limited space.

I have two questions which I hope will not result in a long stream of secondary responses.

1. What were your considerations between a galvanic isolator and isolation transformer and why did you pick the former? Related galvanic isolator discussion with some good points.
2. Had you considered shore power from European Standard connections and what would you do to accommodate that? Perhaps this is not a requirement.

Thank you again. I hope to follow along on this effort.
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Old 22-01-2021, 12:35   #89
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

Scfoster,

Great posts and fantastic diagrams. I'm installing the same inverter/charger this weekend on my Beneteau 473, so your neat diagrams really helped. It was supposed to be only a 'getting rid of the Xantrex freedom and putting the new one' but it quickly turned into something bigger... you know how it goes.

One thing that I saw on one of your previous diagrams but I didn't see in your last one is the ELCI for the AC cables coming out of the inverter. Are you planning on adding them?

Thanks,

S/V Balu
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Old 22-01-2021, 16:51   #90
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Re: New Victron Multiplus install with Li Batteries

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1. What were your considerations between a galvanic isolator and isolation transformer and why did you pick the former? Related galvanic isolator discussion with some good points.
The boat already had two galvanic isolators. An isolation transformer is a LOT more expensive and I'm able to remove two 30amp isolators for one 60a unit. Not much thinking beyond that.

Quote:
2. Had you considered shore power from European Standard connections and what would you do to accommodate that? Perhaps this is not a requirement.
Had not really considered European connections. Given that the boat is based on the Chesapeake Bay, with no plans to cross the Atlantic. So 120V it is.
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