New Victron Multi 5kVA added to Old Multi 3kVA

[s/v Jedi]

Is it the panel all the way under there in the foot well? Seems you have ample space there!

You can see the width of panels by counting the columns of breakers. Width of each breaker column plus label area is the same among all panels.

It’s hard for me to see where and how you mount the Multiplus units. They should mount against a bulkhead, not a floor. This is due to air flow.

For the space ventilation you can always add forced ventilation using a thermostat control. These are readily available for AV cabinets etc.

Those upper panels are all DC? Man!

[s/v Jedi]

Also, why Orion-tr isolated? I think you 12V negative and 24V negative are the same? You shouldn’t need an isolated version then...

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Is it the panel all the way under there in the foot well? Seems you have ample space there!
Yes that is the original Paneltronex 240V AC Panel
That area is a removable panel as Photo shows.
I'm assume that was done to allow them to change out the 8D 12v Radio/Gen start battery which was originally vented lead acid when I bought the boat (what a mess)...now an AGM
I guess I could make that panel fixed now and put the rotary switches there, but pros and cons depending on Multi placement

You can see the width of panels by counting the columns of breakers. Width of each breaker column plus label area is the same among all panels.

It’s hard for me to see where and how you mount the Multiplus units. They should mount against a bulkhead, not a floor. This is due to air flow.
Explained below

For the space ventilation you can always add forced ventilation using a thermostat control. These are readily available for AV cabinets etc.

Those upper panels are all DC? Man!Yes,when I bought the boat in 2004, no Master switch for battery banks, just fuses and individual breakers for every group
The boat was originally built for a German shipowner in Holland ...BOTH with a penchant for overbuilding everything. I love it!

Yes the first thing I need to decide is where to bulkhead mount the two multis
The 5kw will replace the 3kw's present location where it vertically hangs on a solid beam using a heavy Alloy plate to offset it, so that the Hydraulic pipes for Fwd steering can pass under, before going aft over the fuel tanks and into the ER

Option 1: Put beside which makes heavy cable to Buss Bars neat, but screws up the rotary switch placement there
Option 2: Mount on Bulkhead facing Fwd, where you see the much larger Skyla 50 sitting.

Will decide, once I get the Jedi Power System all flushed out as to whether I can use my Paneltonix Shore/Gen select, or I need separate.
Not drawn it up yet, but I think I only need One Group select switch as the high loads could be turned off manually when on Inverter.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Also, why Orion-tr isolated? I think you 12V negative and 24V negative are the same?Yes

You shouldn’t need an isolated version then...

When making up the Victron order, I was put in touch with a South African Electrical engineer who has consulted closely with Victron on large Solar/Victron Installs worldwide, both for boats and resorts for many years.

His own home built 80 ft trawler is here in Palawan and he did a new Victron Lithium install supervision for the Marine Suppliers own boat in Subic, so comes highly recommended .
He would advise me and confirm Final Order to Supplier.

Unfortunately, he got lockdowned in SA while this was going on, so we had to do everything thru email and calls.

Thru emails, I confirmed 12V negative and 24V negative are the same hull ground and originally did not specify "isolated"... but he changed it and said over a bad phone connection, "it should be isolated"
Out of respect, I didn't challenge that.

Perhaps, he was thinking ahead to Lithium conversion or just a brain fart??
Anyway, I have them now unopened.
Will this be a problem, that requires me to exchange them or just a waste of money?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

When making up the Victron order, I was put in touch with a South African Electrical engineer who has consulted closely with Victron on large Solar/Victron Installs worldwide, both for boats and resorts for many years.

His own home built 80 ft trawler is here in Palawan and he did a new Victron Lithium install supervision for the Marine Suppliers own boat in Subic, so comes highly recommended .
He would advise me and confirm Final Order to Supplier.

Unfortunately, he got lockdowned in SA while this was going on, so we had to do everything thru email and calls.

Thru emails, I confirmed 12V negative and 24V negative are the same hull ground and originally did not specify "isolated"... but he changed it and said over a bad phone connection, "it should be isolated"
Out of respect, I didn't challenge that.

Perhaps, he was thinking ahead to Lithium conversion or just a brain fart??
Anyway, I have them now unopened.
Will this be a problem, that requires me to exchange them or just a waste of money?

I think you’re okay, just paid a but too much. There are specific cases where isolated still makes sense, like for a radio power supply, to keep noise from DC ground away. But often the radio connects DC negative to housing to coax shield and via antenna this finds house DC negative again.

[s/v Jedi]

If you have all that space under there, I would mount some rotary switches next to that panel and be done.

I am sure you want more than one group. For most boats, it is not advisable to connect A/C to inverter output. Imagine what happens when shore power or genset quits: it all transfers to inverter before you can hope to manually turn them off. So have at least an additional group with A/C and water heater.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

If you have all that space under there, I would mount some rotary switches next to that panel and be done.

I am sure you want more than one group. For most boats, it is not advisable to connect A/C to inverter output. Imagine what happens when shore power or genset quits: it all transfers to inverter before you can hope to manually turn them off. So have at least an additional group with A/C and water heater.

This is the part that confuses me.

Presently If I have Source Selected to either Generator or Shore with slider.
If Selected fails, I loose all AC, no automatic switchover to Inverter.

I like that as nothing AC is critical or a preferent.

I can then switch off any high load AC before selecting an Inverter, which would allow the electric Galley to keep going while I troubleshoot the failure.
Relaxed and simple!

Stepping back to review my preferred User’s concept,….it is like this:

Shore or Gen with no automatic switchover to Inverter if Shore/Gen Fails

New 5Kw Inverter is my default Inverter/Charger and would be in service 100% of the time, with high loads manually turned off at individual breakers beforehand if switching from charger via generator back to Inverter

The 3kW Inverter is backup (normally “OFF”) but can take over to supply a more limited AC, if 5kw had problems.
Before I used a manual transfer switch for the 1.8kW Prosine and 3kW Multi to do this and it was simple

I also wanted to have the facility to raise my Inverter ceiling to theoretical 8kW by creating a “shared” way of splitting the 2 distribution panels and give the light #2 Sub Panel to the 3kw Multi
Same as your Group concept

So by adding a Sub Panel Selector Switch BEFORE the Manual Transfer Switch I’m thinking we could achieve this?

See drawing and let me know what I’m missing on this solution?
Thanks!

[s/v Jedi]

Sorry, not even gonna discuss that. It is a flawed diagram based on a workable setup from a long time ago when inverters were being invented but inverter-chargers were not. The modifications done since original are worse and the result is a nightmare.

I’m not gonna try to convince you to fix that anymore. Please use a Victron diagram if you don’t like mine so that you have at least a solid system.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Sorry, not even gonna discuss that. It is a flawed diagram based on a workable setup from a long time ago when inverters were being invented but inverter-chargers were not. The modifications done since original are worse and the result is a nightmare.

I’m not gonna try to convince you to fix that anymore. Please use a Victron diagram if you don’t like mine so that you have at least a solid system.

Understood, need to go back to studying some more as you suggest and compare with your system.
Thanks for all your help

[Pelagic]

Just a follow-up after discussing with Johannes Boonstra from Victron, who has been very helpful.

I am now happy to go with the standard MultiPlus system installation as per the attached schematic as I never realized (until reading the manual)…that the new 5kW Multi has far more sophisticated features than my original 2008 3kw Multi.

Specifically it already has two separate AC Line Outputs with #2 being switched to disconnect high loads if experiencing voltage problems with shore power. My main concern

So I modified their 5kw schematic (also attached) to utilize the Source Select on my panel and will discuss with electrician modifying the distribution panels to to accommodate switched loads from AC OUT-2 (Just Aircons and Water Heater.)

For now, the 3kw Multi will be a backup Inverter via the “Inverter” Source Select, but Johannes gave my ideas to utilize both if ever I had the demand as with buying new gen Aircons.

Let me know if you see any problems with this solution?
Thanks

[s/v Jedi]

The Victron diagram is great but how is the AC output of the backup unit getting to the AC distribution breakers? You drew a line to the box but can’t connect it like that. You need a transfer switch to select either the new 5kW unit or the 3kW backup unit.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The Victron diagram is great but how is the AC output of the backup unit getting to the AC distribution breakers? You drew a line to the box but can’t connect it like that. You need a transfer switch to select either the new 5kW unit or the 3kW backup unit.

Thanks Nick, I did catch that mistake in the morning after getting some sleep as my mind was wobbly from reading so much Victron programing stuff

This is unfinished, but I think it follows the Victron example a better.

As for the 3kW Multi
It only sees AC input when in “Charger Only” mode, if I wanted some faster charging along with the 5kw when on Generator or Shore

As the 3kW’s AC Out is connected to the “Inverter Source Select” on main panel, it could never accidentally supply the board unless, Shore and Gen were locked out and then it has no AC in

So the 3kW is Normally off, but if ever it was needed it as an Inverter Backup because of problems with the 5kW, then Inverter Source is selected on Main board, which is supplied via battery and 3kw(This is how it has been wired since 2008 as a stand alone Inverter and Charger only when I have AC Power available)

With the new plan, if either Shore or Gen is selected, it will go thru the 5kW, then its AC Out 2 will go to what I now call the "Switched Panel"

This is where all the Aircon breakers and a 3kw Charger breaker will be relocated and according to Victron, if I have a Shore or Gen Failure, those high loads on AC Out 2 shut down for minimum of Two minutes until AC Power is restored and stable.

Have not run this by Johannes Boonstra of Victron yet, so let me know if I'm still missing something, before I get a proper wiring diagram done

[s/v Jedi]

Okay, in & output look okay now. So when the 5kW fails, how is the 3kW gonna have genset or shore power to charge the batteries?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Okay, in & output look okay now. So when the 5kW fails, how is the 3kW gonna have genset or shore power to charge the batteries?

Missed that!

Modified with an extra Inverter Select switch so that the 3kw Backup is wired the same as the 5kw.

Getting back to your concept of bypass, I attempted to draw a solution.


Am I getting closer and which one would you do?

[s/v Jedi]

Here’s my latest version. Read the small print about independent operation which is your setup.

You can connect BUS 3 to either bypass or the OUT 2 of the 5kW unit.

You see that you get to my diagram every time? What you connect to OUT 1 is just one of my distribution groups and to OUT 2 is another distribution group. I just have switches to easily connect them to something else but the principle of the diagram is the same.