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Old 26-07-2020, 19:25   #46
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

I doubt a 1KW will drive a 60 amp charger, my 2000 will just barely make 100 amps at DC voltage.
The 2000 is by far the most common, one day you may want a watermaker, and a 2000 or 2200 will run most AC high output watermakers.
My 2000 stays in the cockpit, it never ever goes below or in a Lazarette, treat anything with gasoline in it like a propane tank. I put a cover on mine and after now I think three years there is some corrosion on the power panel screws, I think maybe the ground connection , but no where else that I have seen. It’s never been salt water soaked, but has been rained on more than a couple of times.

Either the 2000 or 1000 is noisy as hell making max power, but the 2000 or 2200 is almost whisper quiet making half rated power, but the 1000 will be screaming just as the 2000 or 2200 will be too at max power.
My 2000’s min RPM is 3000, I have a tach on it, it makes rated continuous power (13.3 amps) at 4300 RPM, but it will turn over 5,000 if it’s working hard, and that’s when it sounds like it’s going to blow up.

So the little Honda’s and any neighbors you may have and I assure you will be happier with them at less than maximum load.

On edit, these things max continuous power is less than the label.
My 2000 is rated for 1600W continuous, I’d guess the 2200 is 1800, and the 1000 about 800w?
Keep them at or below max continuous power and I suspect they will last a lot longer, I know they are much quieter.

I can get about 90 amps max continuous from my 165 amp alternator, it’s heat that limits it, I do have my regulator set pretty conservative though, I’m certain the alternator will live longer if I keep it from getting real hot.

US prices For a big alternator, regulator and serpentine belt kit is going to cost you about $1700, I don’t know where you are if it’s more or less.
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Old 26-07-2020, 21:01   #47
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

If you go lithium you will have no choice but to upgrade your charge system. Figure $1500 or more. With golf carts that won't be necessary. Trojan recommends charging at 10 to 12% of Ah capacity. A 60 amp stock alternator will be fine for a 600 Ah GC bank. If you're on a budget, golf cart batteries are the way to go. Even if you're not on a budge it's the economical way to go.
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Old 26-07-2020, 21:33   #48
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

The Honda 2200 is rated for 1800W continuous, that’s 125A at 14.5v.

I would consider cranking it up in the AM for a half hour or so of bulk charging at 10-12%C for FLAs and Gels depending on battery state, available wind and solar charging and weather forecast.

If I was running it to charge the batteries I would also run the watermaker, bread maker and water heater if you have any of those things since the Honda should be able to hit max recommended charge rate for those two types of batteries with capacity to spare unless you install a really large bank.
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Old 27-07-2020, 03:59   #49
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

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Originally Posted by Budawang View Post
First, I'd like to say I'm blown away by the quality of advice on this thread.

Valhalla: We cruise weekends but also longer periods up to six months at a time. Our yacht is on a mooring and not a slip, so we can only connect to mains power every couple of weeks when we visit a marina.

Yes, I think we would be ok with 300 amp/hr of LifePO4s. I'm leaning towards 2x160 amp/hr Victrons. I guess we could always add another 160 amp/hr Victron later if we want more storage. Enerdrive LifePO4s also look good and are about 20% cheaper here in Australia.
If you are doing 6 months continuous cruising, for system design purposes, I would consider you full time, so my advice about letting the solar catch up charging the batteries during the week doesn't work.

As far as your later thought about a 1000w Honda, that's going to be marginal with a 60amp charger. 60amp@12v is 720w but in reality it's probably drawing more because the charge voltage is actually higher and the charger isn't 100% efficient. 1000w is the peak wattage. I would be looking at something in the 2000w range. Still small enough to easily move about but you have a little extra if you want to run a power tool or something else comes up. The biggest issue is when you run these inverter generators at max power, suddenly they aren't nearly as quiet.

I also wouldn't get too hung up on Honda as a brand. 15yrs ago it was Honda or Yamaha in the quiet inverter generator market. They make good generators but there are now a bunch of competitors. Pretty much everyone makes a similar 2000w unit but they are literally half the price. Just helped a friend pick out a 3000w unit for his trailer to run the air/con. They got a 3100w dual fuel Champion for $750 (it was on sale)...the honda 3000w runs $2200. They have good reviews and he tested it out this past weekend and it's about the same sound level as my Yamaha 2400. One thing I like about the Champion is they are up front with the ratings. It actually has 4 rating in big numbers right on the front of the unit...3100w starting/2800 continuous on gas and 2800 starting/2520 continuous on propane (I wouldn't suggest such a large unit for your use but they have 2000w units also)
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Old 27-07-2020, 07:34   #50
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
The Honda 2200 is rated for 1800W continuous, that’s 125A at 14.5v.

I would consider cranking it up in the AM for a half hour or so of bulk charging at 10-12%C for FLAs and Gels depending on battery state, available wind and solar charging and weather forecast.

If I was running it to charge the batteries I would also run the watermaker, bread maker and water heater if you have any of those things since the Honda should be able to hit max recommended charge rate for those two types of batteries with capacity to spare unless you install a really large bank.

That is at 100% efficiency, but I think the average charger is about 85% efficient, good ones can do better at about 90%, but that’s still a 10% loss.
However as you state FLA batteries won’t take that for long and as charge acceptance drops, you can start running other things, for us that washing clothes, the counter top ice maker or making water.
But he was talking Lithium I think and they will take all you can make.
It would benefit him I believe to put his money in a large inverter / charger and a Honda as opposed to a large alternator, money is likely similar and he just won’t in truth get a whole lot more out of the alternator over stock due to heat, but he may require an external reg, I’m not familiar with lithium, and I believe there must end a way to terminate alternator charge and many other issues that this isn’t the thread to get into.
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Old 27-07-2020, 12:14   #51
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
That is at 100% efficiency, but I think the average charger is about 85% efficient, good ones can do better at about 90%, but that’s still a 10% loss.
However as you state FLA batteries won’t take that for long and as charge acceptance drops, you can start running other things, for us that washing clothes, the counter top ice maker or making water.
But he was talking Lithium I think and they will take all you can make.
It would benefit him I believe to put his money in a large inverter / charger and a Honda as opposed to a large alternator, money is likely similar and he just won’t in truth get a whole lot more out of the alternator over stock due to heat, but he may require an external reg, I’m not familiar with lithium, and I believe there must end a way to terminate alternator charge and many other issues that this isn’t the thread to get into.
Title is Generator or lithium.

In the 2nd paragraph of my last post in this thread I made it clear I was talking about LA batteries, specifically FLAs and Gels.

At 80% efficiency from a Honda 2200 working at full continuous rating of 1800W at 14.5v that would be 100A going to the batteries.

If you had a 600Ahr bank (nice and big) 12% of C would be 72A, leaving 28A for other uses.

Assuming 1800W continuous, 85% efficiency, 14.5v charging, 12%C, you could hook that up to an 875Ahr bank.

If the OP decides to go with lithium, they will have accept that it is not a fully mature technology for recreational marine use a high up front cost for the batteries, as well as costs to upgrade charging, at the very least they will need to upgrade the alternator regulator so that it is current limited and doesn't try to pull so much power from the alternator that it fails.

If they upgrade the alternator to get more power out faster, they will pay for the new alternator and a serpentine belt system. Without the serpentine they won't get full capacity or even near it and even then will probably be killing belts.

If they go with AGMs they will also probably want to limit current with a new regulator.
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Old 27-07-2020, 14:09   #52
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

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Several people have been making the argument for a Honda portable generator. While it would be great to get all our power via wind and solar, I can see the logic of having a small petrol generator. My question is, would it make sense to get the little 1kw Honda which we would solely use for charging out LifePO4 batteries via our 60A charger? Could we just use our 2000W inverter (powered by the batteries) for all our other household AC needs? In other words, the Honda would be solely dedicated to replenishing our batteries. Does this make any sense or is it better to get the Honda 2kw version?

My reasoning is that the 1kw model should be more than capable of providing maximum power to the 60A charger. It is also a bit more compact with storage space at a premium on our boat.
Careful Budawang. There is a very vocal contingent on CF who answer all energy budget questions with "get a Honda." Before you gather machinery, fuel bottles, extension cords, and all the implements needed for the a Honda, you may really want to try solar. With your limited usage, there's a decent chance it will address your need. Quietly.

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Old 27-07-2020, 14:24   #53
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

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Careful Budawang. There is a very vocal contingent on CF who answer all energy budget questions with "get a Honda." Before you gather machinery, fuel bottles, extension cords, and all the implements needed for the a Honda, you may really want to try solar. With your limited usage, there's a decent chance it will address your need. Quietly.

Peter.
So, your going to run a 2000W inverter, a microwave, and electric kettle and heat water off of 300W of Solar?
Yes people get by with 300W of Solar, but in actual truth they are running their Diesel to charge the batteries if they are running much of anything more than a small fridge, you only get about 100AH out of 300W of Solar.
To do what he wants most likely he’s going to need more than 100AH, quite a bit more, so that means either a generator or upgrading his alternator and using the propulsion motor as a generator, which works, but from a financial standpoint burning your big expensive engines hours to charge batteries is a bad idea, you’ll understand that when repower time comes years before it would if you had a Honda.

What machinery and implements does a Honda require?
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Old 27-07-2020, 14:40   #54
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

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Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Careful Budawang. There is a very vocal contingent on CF who answer all energy budget questions with "get a Honda." Before you gather machinery, fuel bottles, extension cords, and all the implements needed for the a Honda, you may really want to try solar. With your limited usage, there's a decent chance it will address your need. Quietly.

Peter.
And they are right in the context the question was asked. It would take a 2 acre solar farm to power what some people want to cruise with.

I see the Honda 2000's on a lot of boats so they must have at least some merit.
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Old 27-07-2020, 14:42   #55
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

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Title is Generator or lithium.

In the 2nd paragraph of my last post in this thread I made it clear I was talking about LA batteries, specifically FLAs and Gels.

At 80% efficiency from a Honda 2200 working at full continuous rating of 1800W at 14.5v that would be 100A going to the batteries.

If you had a 600Ahr bank (nice and big) 12% of C would be 72A, leaving 28A for other uses.

Assuming 1800W continuous, 85% efficiency, 14.5v charging, 12%C, you could hook that up to an 875Ahr bank.

If the OP decides to go with lithium, they will have accept that it is not a fully mature technology for recreational marine use a high up front cost for the batteries, as well as costs to upgrade charging, at the very least they will need to upgrade the alternator regulator so that it is current limited and doesn't try to pull so much power from the alternator that it fails.

If they upgrade the alternator to get more power out faster, they will pay for the new alternator and a serpentine belt system. Without the serpentine they won't get full capacity or even near it and even then will probably be killing belts.

If they go with AGMs they will also probably want to limit current with a new regulator.

I have 660AH of lead acid batteries and a kilowatt of Solar, in middle of winter I run the Honda in the morning before Solar is on line and the bank easily accepts all 100 amps it can make. I shut down the Honda about when it hits absorption voltage and amps begin to fall off, but that’s after I stuff 50 to 100 AH back into the bank.
I can crank my Diesel generator and charge the bank with 185 Amps, it will take that for about 15 min. So at least AGM lead can initially take quite a bit of amps before acceptance rate begins to diminish.
None of that is theory, it’s what I can do with my old bank, when it was newer it would take even more, and for longer.

So in 30 to 60 min, I put in as much as his Solar can in a full day

Title says Generator or Lithium, but I believe we have him understanding that to do what he wants he can’t get there with 300W of Solar alone, so it’s sort of become generator or alternator.
I suspect if he really digs into it and finds out what all the costs associated with Lithium actually are, he may reconsider lead.
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Old 27-07-2020, 14:46   #56
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

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I suspect if he really digs into it and finds out what all the costs associated with Lithium actually are, he may reconsider lead.
I just hope he "digs in" and doesn't "dive in" head first.
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Old 27-07-2020, 14:47   #57
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

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And they are right in the context the question was asked. It would take a 2 acre solar farm to power what some people want to cruise with.

I see the Honda 2000's on a lot of boats so they must have at least some merit.

The Honda’s merits are that they cost $1,000. They require no modifications to the boat or installation, and they output continuously 1800W and aren’t all that loud, and they are very reliable. They can make 1800 W on a cloudy day or short Winter days.
Did I mention that they can do all of that for only $1,000?
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Old 27-07-2020, 14:52   #58
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

When the temps hit close to 100 degrees, they look even better.
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Old 27-07-2020, 16:04   #59
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

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And they are right in the context the question was asked. It would take a 2 acre solar farm to power what some people want to cruise with.

I see the Honda 2000's on a lot of boats so they must have at least some merit.
The OPs use case clearly stated minimal needs. 100ah, maybe 125ah per day. Easily provided by 300w solar array (1500wh/day on average, or 125ah of replenishment). There is no immediate need for LFP batteries.

There are many who simply don't do the math, don't read the question, and just jump to a sentence with a noun, a verb, and Honda Generator and impose the need for A/C which was not on the OPs list.
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Old 27-07-2020, 16:37   #60
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Re: New Generator or Lithium?

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The OPs use case clearly stated minimal needs. 100ah, maybe 125ah per day. Easily provided by 300w solar array (1500wh/day on average, or 125ah of replenishment). There is no immediate need for LFP batteries.

There are many who simply don't do the math, don't read the question, and just jump to a sentence with a noun, a verb, and Honda Generator and impose the need for A/C which was not on the OPs list.
I resemble that remark. i'm sure OP forgot the AC requirement. A heat spell will remind him I'm sure. 100 to 125 Ah per day is not minimal in my book. That should be enough to handle a frig, freezer, electronics at anchor, lights, charging phones and computers, communications, and any other necessary toys. Still going to need the Honda for the AC.
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