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Old 18-03-2022, 17:44   #16
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

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Thanks. So, basically do more painfully tedious work in small spaces

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It's a boat isn't it? Goes with the territory.
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Old 18-03-2022, 18:14   #17
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

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Originally Posted by soopad00pa View Post
Thanks. So, basically do more painfully tedious work in small spaces

I hate boats!
As I see it there are Visibly 4 green(ground AC) leads, 4(neutral white AC) leads, 4(hot black AC ) leads, this is 3 AC wire boat cable, and should be Used to carry AC loads, coming from an AC Switch Panel, or combination switch breaker panel.

1st- question is what voltage is your refridgerator, 120, or 12 vt?
2nd- Question is what are you measuring voltages with? Digital or Analog meter?

Those buss bars are not true buss bars.
These are terminal strips, and are sometimes combined to ease, probing, separate components.
But clearly, if not Labled properly, your gonna have to trace with a volt meter, or physically to the end use i.e. Refridgerator.

BE SURE your using the proper scale for testing, AC switch on meter for AC, DC switch for DC testing.
Be sure your using the proper scale, watch those decimal points position.
Your AC test points use black for hot, white for neutral, green for ground.
Your DC Test points come from the battery negative, black, and Red positive.
Need more help let me know.

If you can provide a better picture, to see what's involved around this setup it could be helpful.
The red wire on the left strip is probably your AC feed wire? It's combined to 3 or Black Hot AC leads?

I cannot see the 3 leads from your AC Input, black, white, green.
From your shore power plug in.
More complete pictures and some test measurements needed here.
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Old 18-03-2022, 18:41   #18
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

I'm the guy who normally encourages everyone to work through and solve their own 12V electrical problems on board...BUT... in this case I firmly endorse jammer and glenn have posted.

Given your apparent lack of experience, you need (at least) some experienced electrical guy standing beside you to guide you through the fault finding journey. As you learn more, you can then ask questions that are answerable over the 'net.
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Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
Those aren't busbars. They're barrier strips. The one on the left has its top three terminal pairs joined electrically by a factory jumper. By the color and type of wire I would guess those are the hot side of the 120v shore power circuit. The next three pairs are also joined together and appear to be the neutral side of the 120v shore power circuit. Below that are ground wires which appear to be connected to the neutral wire though I can't quite tell from the photo. (Such a connection is not recommended and can pose various problems)

The one on the right has its top four terminal pairs joined electrically by a factory jumper and the next two pairs joined (apparently) to it by a thin piece of solid wire. There is no visible connection to the next lower pair, although it appears to have a thin piece of wire connecting it to the next lower pair beyond that.

The "dimple" type crimp tool used to install the yellow and blue wire terminations does not produce reliable crimps. You may find it necessary to replace the terminations using proper tooling, at least on an as-needed basis.

I believe you're out of your depth here and would recommend that you get qualified on-site assistance before proceeding, for your safety.


It is situations like this, where a simple-sounding question about ground busbars turns out to be based on incorrect assumptions that pose serious safety risks, that keeps me from trying to provide electrical troubleshooting assistance when I am not present in person to see what is going on.
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1+ on this, really needs some sorting out.
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Old 18-03-2022, 19:52   #19
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

Looking at the left terminal strip it does appear it could be mostly 120vac wiring (blacks would be L1 and whites L2 neutral) by conventional standards. BUT, there maybe some DC devices connected to the left side in error (if it's 120 vac wiring). That may account for low readings if the left terminal strip is the one giving the low readings. There aren't any large loads connected based on wire size so i don't see anything wrong with using these for your negative connections.

The right strip has the top three terminals jumpered with store bought strips but next two looked to have tiny brownish wow on the left side humoring 4 and 5 two the top three. Might check the size of those as they seem pretty small gauge.

My two cents to the thread.
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Old 18-03-2022, 22:10   #20
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

40 years!!! Tear it all out and rewire.
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Old 19-03-2022, 07:38   #21
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

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Originally Posted by soopad00pa View Post
Thanks. So, basically do more painfully tedious work in small spaces

I hate boats!
The terminal block on the left (FACING) looks to be used as a buss with the terminals jumped. The one on the right it appears that only the top three are jumped and the rest are used as independent terminals.
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Old 19-03-2022, 08:45   #22
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

This is a 40yr old boat with a buncha previous owners as dumb as I am. The electrical is a mess, obviously, and it's non-standard enough that I obviously don't even know half of what I'm looking at.

I've reached out to a guy that'll hopefully be able to help. Thanks for the input and helping me not burn my boat to the waterline. Derp
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Old 19-03-2022, 09:24   #23
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

The left one is ac power…. Not dc.

This is why boats use yellow for dc neg instead of dc neg and ac hot sane color.
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Old 19-03-2022, 10:25   #24
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

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The left one is ac power…. Not dc.



This is why boats use yellow for dc neg instead of dc neg and ac hot sane color.


The rest of world simply uses black for dc negative and blue for ac neutral
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Old 19-03-2022, 11:07   #25
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by soopad00pa View Post
This is a 40yr old boat with a buncha previous owners as dumb as I am. The electrical is a mess, obviously, and it's non-standard enough that I obviously don't even know half of what I'm looking at.

I've reached out to a guy that'll hopefully be able to help. Thanks for the input and helping me not burn my boat to the waterline. Derp
Have you probed those wire strips yet?
Is the left side, with the white, and black wires, 120 vts.
Or, 12 vts.
It would be really wrong to use AC boat wire on a DC Circuit.
Though, I've seen it done...!

So it's important to know.
While it's not advisable, to change, or repair wiring without knowledge.
AC Circuits and DC circuits are grounded in different ways.
So, you cannot tell by the color of the wires, you must probe them for voltages.

I'd say you could learn a few things in general about your boats system if you'd probe the electrical system.
You can even just unplug the shore power so it won't play a factor.

If your just plain green on how to use a multimeter, maybe perform a few probes on the battery for learning how to interpret your findings, and how your meter works.
It's a great opportunity, not as scary as some may suggest.
You will not learn much from having someone explain it to you, some hands on is required.
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Old 19-03-2022, 11:20   #26
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

While I'm new to boats, I'm not new to electrics. Tho my experience is 95% diy, I've wired houses and vans/rvs, to include solar. That said, I haven't had to do any real retrofitting until this job. The vast majority of my experience has been blank slates or plugging a 12v system into an alternator.

This layer upon layer of different diy stuff is frustrating.

Thanks for all the help and info, not just in this thread, but others. It has definitely kept me from fubarring some stuff!
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Old 19-03-2022, 11:30   #27
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by soopad00pa View Post
While I'm new to boats, I'm not new to electrics. Tho my experience is 95% diy, I've wired houses and vans/rvs, to include solar. That said, I haven't had to do any real retrofitting until this job. The vast majority of my experience has been blank slates or plugging a 12v system into an alternator.

This layer upon layer of different diy stuff is frustrating.

Thanks for all the help and info, not just in this thread, but others. It has definitely kept me from fubarring some stuff!
I would not give a lot of credence to wire color if the boat has been through a no. of owners
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Old 19-03-2022, 11:36   #28
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

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I would not give a lot of credence to wire color if the boat has been through a no. of owners
True, but I would not expect to see any RED wires on either of those blocks, and yet we have three.
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Old 19-03-2022, 11:39   #29
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by soopad00pa View Post
While I'm new to boats, I'm not new to electrics. Tho my experience is 95% diy, I've wired houses and vans/rvs, to include solar. That said, I haven't had to do any real retrofitting until this job. The vast majority of my experience has been blank slates or plugging a 12v system into an alternator.

This layer upon layer of different diy stuff is frustrating.

Thanks for all the help and info, not just in this thread, but others. It has definitely kept me from fubarring some stuff!
Well put, I believe that we all need more experience.
Tight spaces are a deterrent.

You would do well just to know the DC side from the AC.
They should be pretty evident, with a DVOM.

Good luck with the boat wiring.
Mines a 1979, from Japan.
It's got wiring from that era as well.

A bit mucked up.
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Old 25-03-2022, 08:00   #30
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Re: Neg bus bars w/difft voltage?

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Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
Those aren't busbars. They're barrier strips. The one on the left has its top three terminal pairs joined electrically by a factory jumper. By the color and type of wire I would guess those are the hot side of the 120v shore power circuit. The next three pairs are also joined together and appear to be the neutral side of the 120v shore power circuit. Below that are ground wires which appear to be connected to the neutral wire though I can't quite tell from the photo. (Such a connection is not recommended and can pose various problems)

The one on the right has its top four terminal pairs joined electrically by a factory jumper and the next two pairs joined (apparently) to it by a thin piece of solid wire. There is no visible connection to the next lower pair, although it appears to have a thin piece of wire connecting it to the next lower pair beyond that.

The "dimple" type crimp tool used to install the yellow and blue wire terminations does not produce reliable crimps. You may find it necessary to replace the terminations using proper tooling, at least on an as-needed basis.

I believe you're out of your depth here and would recommend that you get qualified on-site assistance before proceeding, for your safety.


It is situations like this, where a simple-sounding question about ground busbars turns out to be based on incorrect assumptions that pose serious safety risks, that keeps me from trying to provide electrical troubleshooting assistance when I am not present in person to see what is going on.

Great analysis Jammer, but of course based upon some assumptions for lack of being there. True, these are not bus bars. They are commonly called terminal strips. Due to the black color, marine engineer slang is "chocolate blocks". They are really meant for connecting individual circuits side to side, as each screw terminal pair is electrically a single point. You need to be careful stacking multiple terminations under the screws. They are limited to two each. Exceeding this limits clamping pressure. They can easily loosen off and cause intermittent faults. Even if properly done, they can still loosen. As a basic quick shot gun approach, you can try tightening each screw to temporarily solve the problem .


This looks like a job that was done by somebody with poor electrical skills. For reliability and safety, the circuits will need to be traced, all terminations redone and all terminations labelled. Would be handy to make yourself a drawing as you work, and a final drawing when all is done. If you have a lot of terminations to a common point, best to use a proper bus bar, rather than to daisy chain point to point to avoid exceeding current limit of the common wire. I would put the whole arrangement inside a proper water tight electrical box secured to the bulkhead to protect from moisture and incidental damage, and to protect from any high voltage that might be present. Passing wires through a box will require packing glands though. This will add some work drilling holes and fitting the glands. Proper marine wire has a round jacket for glands to seal against. Flat wire for land applications will not seal in a gland.



Tracing wires throughout a boat is tedious and time consuming. Much time can be saved with a "fox and hound" type circuit tracing set. That is a trade name and generically, they are called toners. One part is a radio transmitter that is connected to a wire. The other is a receiver that is moved close to the wire along its length. It will receive the signal when in close proximity. They do not work through metal barriers and shielded cable though. Here's and example of a "Tone & Probe Kit" https://www.homedepot.ca/product/kle...kit/1001632690


An ohm meter with long test leads can be used to confirm the tone and probe tracing. Might need to get some banana plugs, alligator clips, and flexible wire to make leads that can be run the length of the boat. Of course all possible feeds to circuits under test must be isolated so you do not zap yourself and your equipment, even if it means blacking out the whole boat and working by portable battery light.



As Jammer suggests, the crimps are poorly done with a cheap dimple type crimper. You need a quality crimper with jaws as thick as the terminal barrel length. This makes a reliable crimp that is continuous along the whole barrel. Here is a low cost ratcheting crimper that does an acceptable job https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/2...7568p.html#srp
Homedepot US has a Klein, but cannot find it listed for Canada https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-To...05CR/306884697

You can get a higher quality tool from an electrical supply shop if you want, but the cost will exceed $100. For occasional use, the CTC tool is not bad though.


Another essential tool is a quality wire stripper that will not damage fine multi strand wire. Not sure how confident you are with your electrical skills, but with some good tools and planning, if you take your time, it is a basic job to trace and renew wiring. Achieving a safe and reliable result takes attention to detail that was lacking in the original job.
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