Lithium ion house battery bank disappointment

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

Senor,

Thanks for coming back.
You are comparing flooded lead acid with Li Ion. All of the benefits you mention above, including the space savings, are achieved by going from flooded lead to TTPL lead. With the exception of weight.

My dilemma is comparing my TTPL AGM bank to Li Ion.

Thanks again,
Juan

They are Lithium Iron Phosphate, not Lithium Ion.
Big difference. Lithium Ion can suffer thermal runaway.
Lithium Iron Phosphate cannot.
Read the LOOONG thread LifePo4 for a house bank.

[john61ct]

LFP **as bare cells** take up much less space.

If you go with a packaged system YMMV.

LFP **as bare cells** will be a much lower price, but still lots pricier than AGM, vs FLA even more so. But then your well-researched protective infrastructure (DIY BMS) and custom charging profile are required to have **any chance** of making that large initial investment pay off. Eventually. Maybe.

For the vast majority of cruisers, the time trouble and added up-front expense are just not worth it from a purely rational POV.

Racers counting every pound, those who really need the very high CAR no need to get to Full, people who enjoy being on the bleeding edge or tinkering, willing and able to risk losing the gamble, those are the LFP early adopters.

[john61ct]

LFP (LiFePO4) are a type of LI (lithium ion).

There are dozens of others, none of which are suitable for House usage in a mobile context.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by stormalong

the price of lithium batteries should drop significantly in the next few years as the battery technology and the manufacturing technology matures

Very unlikely wrt the bare cell component. Demand is skyrocketing.

But yes on the artificially high protective electronics infrastructure. Open-source + open hardware projects coming to maturity will reduce packaged system vendor profits.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by svGenesis

Costco has a simular price batterie too.

The Duracell (Deka) 6V FLA GCs also sold at Sam's Club are far superior to Costco's (Interstate / JCI) versions.

IMO roughly on par with Trojan.

Which BTW are far from "bottom" quality, maybe #4-5 in the NA FLA market, and among the best taking price into account ($/AH/year)

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

Maybe Australia is really a continent apart

Yes, completely different market.

The best brands at (what they consider) reasonable pricing are Chinese.

Anything imported from farther away gets **lots** pricier.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

if lithiums were so much better in total cost of ownership, boaters would have already switched.

Since the ROI period is 15+ yrs, the risk vs time element is wisely factored in.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Colin A

In theory at least a lithium pack would go well over 1000 cycles discharged to between 10-20% remaining.

Not just in theory, and if cycled less deeply on average *and* with lower voltage charging, 5-10x that may be possible.

Maybe. ROI is risky and long though.

The only lead batt that does actually stand up to regular PSOC abuse is Firefly Oasis, and they're $500+ / 100AH.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

how does Li Ion support higher demand any better?

inherent in the chemistry.

Ability to sustain discharge 1C rates and higher with much less voltage drop.

Rarely a practical problem with a large enough good quality AGM bank.

But critical for example using the bank for propulsion.

Or a large inverter load with a small bank.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

The issue is Li Ion doesn’t improve on my TPPL AGM lead battery installation other than weight savings in my application.

Then stick with what works for you.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Very unlikely wrt the bare cell component. Demand is skyrocketing.

But yes on the artificially high protective electronics infrastructure. Open-source + open hardware projects coming to maturity will reduce packaged system vendor profits.

Precisely because demand is skyrocketing price will come down. It already had dropped significantly for the electric automotive and powerwall market. As more suppliers come in to fill demand they will improve manufacturing techniques. And competition will drive prices lower. This is still bleeding edge technology.

The pleasure boat market is insignificant and is just along for the ride. The real market is alternative energy storage and automotive.

[LLizzard]

Originally Posted by UFO

I think you mis-understand what Hans is saying.

I think he has 4S5P

"What we have here is a failure to communicate, a failure to communicate"
1967 Cool Hand Luke starring Paul Newman

[CatNewBee]

I am still convinced, LFP is the way to go... much better and more reliable.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

This is a popular topic and we still can't agree on some facts:

Lead acid batteries are significantly less expensive than lithiums, around 5x or more when you factor in the charging system.

You can use (abuse) lead acid batteries with a similar usage profile to lithiums (i.e. discharge to 20%, only rarely charge to 100%). This is how golf carts use them and most industrial equipment. It is not good for the battery but if you factor in a more frequent replacement, lead acid still comes ahead by a factor of two or more.

Flooded batteries take abuse better than AGMs, and golf cart batteries especially can charge up to c/3 in bulk mode which is sufficient for most users.

So, what is the use case for lithiums? If you race and care about weight. Not a big issue for cruisers but I guess some people with cats may differ.

If you have an objection to battery abuse and prefer to baby the battery instead of making it serve you, then probably lithiums will give you a piece of mind.

If you need high discharge rates frequently (e.g. running an air conditioner off the batteries for hours on end, then recharging) or electric propulsion. Lithiums take this much better. But most people do not use batteries in this way. An occasional high current discharge (microwave, a couple of hours of AC, etc.) is possible with lead acid.

Lastly, if lithiums were so much better in total cost of ownership, boaters would have already switched. They haven't and this tells you something.

SV Pizzazz

Many boaters have already switched, and more do every day. And there are others who would like to switch, but simply can't afford to. Others for whom the expected time for ROI is longer than they plan to own the boat, etc etc.

The fact that not everyone has switched yet, doesn't mean the benefits aren't real.

Some people were still using horses long after cars and tractors became available...

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Journeyman, if you are really deep cycling AGM batteries i.e. to 20% SOC or below, and that is not just a falsehood generated by your instruments, then you are incredibly lucky to have seen 7 years from them. It is unheard of

Really? What sort of batteries are you using in your boat btw?

Originally Posted by hellosailor

And that's the main reason lithium of whatever type are said to take up half the space of AGM.

So what? saving half the space of two FLA batteries is one LFP, hardly a great saving on a 31ft yacht is it. Lets be honest its the space of a large shoe box.

Originally Posted by hellosailor

As to those who say "I can replace my lead batteries five times!" and such...Yeah, nice concept. Now please go back and take a look at how the prices of lead acid batteries have shot up in the past tan years. Doubled maybe? It is only getting worse, lead batteries can be expected to go up a good 50% every time you need to replace them.

So lets examine this concept in detail, with some facts. A quick look a the receipt for my batteries in 2011 shows they were £110 each. Todays price for the same batteries is £120 https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/VARTA-81301...0603400&crdt=0

So I am not really seeing your concept of a huge price increase. Do you have evidence of this price increase?

What I think will happen is the price of FLP will come down over the next decade and then when the price reaches a point were it is worth investing then I and lots of others like Dale Tournier will make the switch. But I want to be sure that I am getting value for money first.

Are you using FLP on your boat?