LiFePO4: ABYC considering "ban" on non-integrated installs?

[Davidhoy]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Have there actually been any boat fires caused by LIFePO4 batteries?

I have been searching online for the past couple of days, and have not found a single story of a boat fire attributable to LiFePO4. Some point to the racing catamaran PlayStation that had a battery fire, but that was due to overcharging of NiMh batteries, not LiFePO4. The battery vendor I mentioned at the start of the thread referred to a fire on a boat named “Equus” in 2014 off Nantucket, which some blamed on lithium batteries. That seems to be about it. If you know of any fires specifically attributable to lithium in general, and LiFePO4 specifically, please post the details.

[Davidhoy]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

I'm actually in the process of swapping from a 400AH LiFePO4 bank to 400AH Carbon Foam Bank by Firefly. Most of the advantages of LiFePO4 without the risk or complicated controls and BMS systems. It was a fun experiment but I can get what I'm after with a simpler solution.....

Rich, I’d love to hear the details of this. While I’m close, I have not pulled the trigger on my LiFePO4 upgrade yet. The Firefly batteries are still a lot heavier and larger, so I’d only fit about 400Ah in the space I have available, compared to 600Ah+ using LiFePO4.

[Zil]

Originally Posted by Zil

There are always stories to be found about home-built or jury-rigged Li batteries causing fire and mayhem.
LiFePo will be caught by the regulations as well as other chemistries.

Notice I did not say LFP were the problem. Only that LFP will be lumped together with other Li chemistries.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Zil

Notice I did not say LFP were the problem. Only that LFP will be lumped together with other Li chemistries.

Opposite. The coming standards are what will allow compliant LFP systems to be widely implemented.

AFAIK no other chemistries are being contemplated for approval at this time.

[Davidhoy]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Opposite. The coming standards are what will allow compliant LFP systems to be widely implemented.

AFAIK no other chemistries are being contemplated for approval at this time.

What is the anticipated definition of "compliant" LFP systems? Only fully integrated systems, or banks made from prismatic cells with an appropriate BMS to protect them? If the standard precludes the latter, it is nothing but a gimme to the battery vendors who overcharge for their integrated systems. Especially as insurance companies may use ABYC recommendations as way to avoid paying otherwise legitimate claims.

-David

[dlentz]

Originally Posted by Davidhoy

I have been searching online for the past couple of days, and have not found a single story of a boat fire attributable to LiFePO4. If you know of any fires specifically attributable to lithium in general, and LiFePO4 specifically, please post the details.

Not really even a fire but, Vestas Wind in the 2014 VOR. From the crash report:

"LFP Batteries
247. The only point regarding equipment that is considered necessary to raise in this report
concerns the LFP battery(s) catching on fire. The LFP batteries are reported to have started
‘smoking’ shortly before abandoning the yacht. This is believed to be as a result of their exposure or
submersion in salt water. This did raise a concern of fire and was one of the factors that influenced
the decision to abandon the yacht.
248. When retrieving gear from the boat, at least one battery continued to smoke quite profusely
and was left on a beach as it was considered dangerous. When the crew returned sometime later
there was burnt remains and the battery had self-destructed. This is beyond the expertise available
to the report team but it is considered significant and worthy of further investigation."

Funny isn't it? These surely weren't DIY, and maybe they were from your "friend". Didn't he mention this one? Go figure, put a boat on a reef and bad things are going to happen.
Most/many early fires associated with LifePo were in the EV market, and many of those were caused by BMSs, in particular active balancing units and shunts overheating.

[Maine Sail]

ABYC considering "ban" on non-integrated installs

Please keep in mind that the ABYC standards do not "ban" anything, they simply recommend or set forth a performance & safe installation standard. These standards are also voluntary in the US...

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by john61ct

AFAIK no other chemistries are being contemplated for approval at this time.

There is no "approval" or disapproval....

[Davidhoy]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Please keep in mind that the ABYC standards do not "ban" anything, they simply recommend or set forth a performance & safe installation standard. These standards are also voluntary in the US...

Understood completely, hence the quotes around the word itself. I was merely echoing what I received in the email.

I would also like to say a big "thank you" for all the informative articles and videos on your website. I have learned a lot from you, not just about LiFePO4. Most notably I am a solid convert to the wonders of beveled holes and butyl tape for bedding deck fixtures! And I've bought all my butyl tape from your online store :-).

Regards,
David

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Davidhoy

What is the anticipated definition of "compliant" LFP systems?

A functional one, not mandating only proprietary packaged systems.

Is my understanding.

We'll really just have to wait and see for the specifics.

[NahanniV]

Originally Posted by dlentz

Not really even a fire but, Vestas Wind in the 2014 VOR. From the crash report:

"LFP Batteries
247. The only point regarding equipment that is considered necessary to raise in this report
concerns the LFP battery(s) catching on fire. The LFP batteries are reported to have started
‘smoking’ shortly before abandoning the yacht. This is believed to be as a result of their exposure or
submersion in salt water. This did raise a concern of fire and was one of the factors that influenced
the decision to abandon the yacht.
248. When retrieving gear from the boat, at least one battery continued to smoke quite profusely
and was left on a beach as it was considered dangerous. When the crew returned sometime later
there was burnt remains and the battery had self-destructed. This is beyond the expertise available
to the report team but it is considered significant and worthy of further investigation."

Funny isn't it? These surely weren't DIY, and maybe they were from your "friend". Didn't he mention this one? Go figure, put a boat on a reef and bad things are going to happen.
Most/many early fires associated with LifePo were in the EV market, and many of those were caused by BMSs, in particular active balancing units and shunts overheating.

Not sure what chemistry Vestas had, but recently my 4 Winston 400AH LiFePo4 cells were submerged in salt water for about 24h without any drama.

My boat broke a mooring and went aground on a rocky shore. The boat was violently pounded for over ten hours and sunk to the deck level when towed off. The boat was not lifted out of the water till the next day.

[john61ct]

Kids, don't try that at home!

[hellosailor]

Vesta Wind? Running an entire boat aground?

Jee...if they'd had a simple flooding incident on board, with conventional wet lead batteries, the boat could have been abandoned because those give off free chlorine gas when mixed with salt water.

Maybe sealed "lithium" batteries should be made mandatory instead of banned?

No really, is there any verified source of information about this, beyond some unknown vendor's statements?

[CatNewBee]

there was recently an electric propulsion motor yacht in Germany on the Rhein river catching fire and the LiIon battery run off during the fire fighting in the marina with a propper bang. But it was a factory build green energy vessel, so maybe green energy vessel should be banned too.

[mbartosch]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

there was recently an electric propulsion motor yacht in Germany on the Rhein river catching fire and the LiIon battery run off during the fire fighting in the marina with a propper bang. But it was a factory build green energy vessel, so maybe green energy vessel should be banned too.

I remember vivid discussions in German boating forums. The gist of it was that the battery was not a LiFePO4 but rather some LiIon type. IIRC it turned out that this was a quite old design (built around 2006) and that the manufacturer had taken some debatable decisions on implementation.

Unfortunately I was not able to find details or a link to more tangible information.