Lead Crystal Batteries

[vientoman]

as a multihull performance cruiser person, I would mostly be interested in comparing ( $ / Ahr * lb ) * cycle life of all the practical battery types.....call that my personal battery fondness quotient. Not sure what those numbers would look like.

[sailinglegend]

Phil, thanks very much for returning to the Forum, I'm sorry I said you were from Betta batteries, but as a "distribution partner" it would seem that you're not getting fed the same information as me. Please can we try and get to the bottom of this. I'm not trying to be pedantic and bore those that can't get their heads around this discussion, but when new technologies make great claims we all want to try and understand the potential benefits.

Originally Posted by phil dunn

....1) These are not AGM batteries. AGM stands for Absorbed Glass Mat, which is a fibreglass like construction used as a sheet to act as a separator material within a battery - Lead Crystal uses a similar material with a very different structure and in a very different way.

I would say to people that these are a new kind of AGM battery that uses "a new advanced type of AGM material as a separator, the AGM has much higher electrical conductivity, heat resistant and acid resistant abilities than standard AGM on the market."

These quotes are not mine, but from Axcom's product literature. The Chinese who make these also call them VRLA AGM batteries (Valve Regulated Lead Acid). So they DO gas, but at much lower rates than FLA batteries, so they do need a vent.

So they sound and they perform like GOOD AGM batteries, so that is a good starting point to try and understand them, and to make comparisons with. None of your marketing compares them to AGMs!

Originally Posted by phil dunn

..... The other issue is people incorrectly use acronyms like AGM and assign them to products, which leads to misunderstanding, rather than as part elements.

Yes I agree, which I guess is why you are trying to distance yourself from the "AGM" brand. This I fear will lead to more confusion. We all by now know that AGMs are a good battery with the primary advantage that they charge much much faster than an FLA battery. Why not market the Lead Crystal Battery as a new type of AGM with the added advantages of longer life from lower sulfation, and over 1000 cycles even at 80% DoD.

Most of the advantages in just one sentence!!!!!

Originally Posted by phil dunn

....2) the Victron shorepower will be fine as a charger - it has been used by boat companies here and on other applications with LC without issue. It is an excellent charger unit and will not cause a problem.

I have a 120 amp Victron for my AGM bank and it is great. You totally missed my point that a 50 Amp Victron shorepower charger is too small for a Lead Crystal battery bank that needs 0.3C as a charging rate. The problem with all AGM technology is that to get the best out of them you need to throw as much charge current as possible to get value for money. Lead Crystals demand a bigger charging rate than conventional AGMs (0.2C). What are the problems if you don't supply that?

Originally Posted by phil dunn

....3) C10 is the rate normally used for traditional applications like UPS systems, C3 or C5 is generally used for starter batteries.....

My point is that when we are looking for Deep Cycle batteries we avoid any product that does not quote a 20 hr rate because we know they are not true Deep Cycle batteries.

Originally Posted by phil dunn

....4) there are indeed other types of Lead Crystal batteries,.... The electrolyte is the same in all, the plates are as well,.....And in these products, they get rated at c3 or c5 or c20 depending on where they are being sold. Interestingly though, they are basically all the same thing.

Traditionally different uses for batteries demanded different plate thickness - a thick plates is what makes a pure deep cycle battery. Starter batteries need thinner plates, in between you have the compromises called "leisure batteries". Thin plates with less lead is why starter batteries are cheaper than pure deep cycle.

This is where many people go wrong buying the wrong kind of AGM, and then they are disappointed in their performance. If this is how you make Lead Crystal and they work, and keep the cost down, then great!

Originally Posted by phil dunn

....5)....They are perfectly suitable for sailing boats, they get used on tanks and military applications which are far more rugged and abusive environments without issue.

That is what we wanted to hear. Thank You, but we do need more feedback on how they perform over their life cycle. with the abuse they get from marine use.

Originally Posted by phil dunn

....6) Peukerts figure is 1

It can't be 1, that would mean the 2 hour rate is the same as the 120 hour rate. This figure is important because we have to programme Battery Monitors with it - we also need to know their charge efficiency which I know is very similar to AGMs.

The MD at Betta Batteries Europe says they don't have a Peukerts value yet - but I am waiting for their technical guys to answer.

Originally Posted by phil dunn

....7) sulphation, not an issue if you use the batteries and cycle them properly.

I'm not sure what you mean by this answer?

It is often very difficult on a boat to use the battery properly, which in my view mainly means recharging it back to 100% regularly. This may not be possible if you spend a lot of time at anchor, so undercharging a battery will kill it prematurely. My question was does undercharging matter so much with Lead Crystal?

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by phil dunn

Dear Greg

your email or post about 3rd party testing is exactly what we want to do. Any information about a suitable testing party that can be provided would be extremely useful and we will take it up with them. Happy to do this.

I have been involved with some testing like this in the past, but for batteries I can't make a specific recommendation of who to talk to. But there are some very trusted sources out there that I would recommend reaching out too.

1) Practical Sailor - like a Consumer a Reports for marine gear. A testing regime from them would go a long way toward building consumer confidence.

2) Yachting Monthly - much like PS, but located out of Briton so they may be a better option for you. I know they do manufacturer sponsored tests (see their prop test for example), but are generally considered impartial and fair in their testing.

3) Panbo - generally they do marine electronics, but have the expertise to handle battery testing. Another very trusted source of third party reviews.


In my eyes I can easily see the value of your product, and intuitively it makes sense to me. But until your technology has generally been accepted into the marine market I personally wouldn't buy one without a very clear path to adoption. To shorten this process I would see a recommendation from one of the above as a solid justification to put LC on the list when it comes time for replacement.

[TxCoastSailor]

Folks,

These batteries appear to be made by a German company called Axcom. The link below is to their website.

Home - axcom GmbH

TCS

[Maine Sail]

Guys,

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE read the manufacturers User Manual.

http://www.axcom-battery-technology....r_NEU_engl.pdf

Suffice it to say these batteries are in fact a form of AGM (statements of fact right in the user manual). They also DO NOT have a Peukert of 1.0.... Lots of gobbledygook being spread around in this thread....

Please read and understand all the intricacies of that manual because it reveals a lot about the "claims". I also note a lot of marketing claiming one thing and the manual claiming another. Smells a lot like the early AGM marketing when they first hit the market......

I have no doubt this may be a great new technology but I view it with skepticism when folks associated with it claim a Peukert of 1.0, & claim that these are not an AGM technology.. There is lots of stuff the manual that show otherwise, when compared to some of the marketing claims laid out in this thread.

PLEASE look at the discharge curves on page 7.. 10C gives 2 minutes before they hit 11.4 V or 1.9 VPC ..... At a discharge of 0.01C they don't hit 11.4 V or 1.9 VPC until 100 hours.... That DOES NOT represent anywhere close to a Peukert of 1.0......

That said I AM very much looking forward to getting beyond the marketing claims on this technology and seeing how it performs in the REAL WORLD outside of a LABORATORY....

I'm sorry to be so skeptical of the claims but when so many of them can easily be proven misleading by simply downloading the user manual.........!!

[Maine Sail]

Still have some curious observations & questions regarding the marketing and the manual...



When compared to a LiFePO4 battery (LYP) in terms of discharge curves:

5C yields approx 85% of the capacity rating
3C yields approx 92% of the capacity rating
1C Yields approx 102% of the capacity rating
0.5C Yields approx 106% of the capacity rating

Note how tightly those discharge loads are clustered and this still does NOT represent a Peukert of 1.0....... BTW 5C is a discharge load of 500A on a 100Ah battery. 0.5C is 50A on a 100Ah battery....

3C on the Lead Crystal gives you approx 7 minutes before hitting 11.4V or 1.9 VPC.... (page 7)

In terms of Ah capacity for a 100Ah LC battery at 3C this means:

300A X 0.116 (7 minutes) = 34.8 Ah's at a 3C load........

You get just 35% of the capacity of this battery at a 3C load but approx 92% of the capacity at 3C for LiFePO4....

Still the marketing claims this battery deals better "Very Good" with "high voltage discharge capacity" than Li "Less Good"..? That is certainly an odd claim because the math does not support that...? I know I am not the best mathematician but .....?

BTW what is a "high voltage discharge capacity" when it is current that matters and current that is used in the discharge curves in the manual...???? Just curious....?

Should that not be "high current discharge capacity" when that is what has been used in the user manual....???

Perhaps someone can slap me in the face and clear up my obvious confusion over this......?

Originally Posted by phil dunn

....6) Peukerts figure is 1

Perhaps when I was sleeping Ohm's law was re-written so we could get to this claimed 1.0 Peukert....?? Tongue firmly in-cheek.....

[darylat8750]

Mr. Dunn,
Thank you for being active on this site. Please be careful to answer questions directly and factually. Taking an extra day to check with your engineers if in doubt would be time well spent. Answers that have already given me pause.

"6) Peukerts figure is 1."

As MainSail pointed out this is not possible.

"7) sulphation, not an issue if you use the batteries and cycle them properly."

You were specifically asked if this meant that they needed to be regularly charged to 100%. On boats at anchor we only want to burn fuel to charge when we are charging at a high rate. That last 20% is accepted by current batteries at a much much lower rate. Therefore it wastes so much fuel that most of us avoid charging to 100% except when in a marina. (Or once every month or so for our boat.) The question then is: Will charging to 100% one cycle out of thirty be considered cycling them properly? Or, how many times can they be cycled between 80% and 50% (if not 50% what lower figure?) before they need to be charged to 100% to avoid length of service issues?

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

"7) sulphation, not an issue if you use the batteries and cycle them properly."

You were specifically asked if this meant that they needed to be regularly charged to 100%. On boats at anchor we only want to burn fuel to charge when we are charging at a high rate. That last 20% is accepted by current batteries at a much much lower rate. Therefore it wastes so much fuel that most of us avoid charging to 100% except when in a marina. (Or once every month or so for our boat.) The question then is: Will charging to 100% one cycle out of thirty be considered cycling them properly? Or, how many times can they be cycled between 80% and 50% (if not 50% what lower figure?) before they need to be charged to 100% to avoid length of service issues?

As I read it there is a qualifier in the word IF. As I read the manual it is possible for sulphation to form..

I for one would like to know:

Question: Can you discharge to 80% DOD or 50% DOD and let them sit there for MONTHS without this affecting cycle life.

Question: If cycle life is affected due to letting them sit at discharged states is this due to sulphation?



Either a battery sulphates, or it does not.. An LA technology that does not sulphate, at all, would indeed be a great technology but I suspect marketing and science need to be separated for us to find the real truth......

[O_salt]

Hi, Interesting discussion.

The spec sheets for the different size batteries seem to answer a lot of the questions being asked here.

They have a lot of good information.

O_salt

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

....PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE read the manufacturers User Manual.

http://www.axcom-battery-technology....r_NEU_engl.pdf

Many thanks Maine Sail for joining this thread and adding your observations.

The manufacturers of these batteries are in fact Betta Batteries @ Betta Batteries

Axcom are just the German distributors, but their manual is 10 times better than the Betta Batteries site, where their three main reasons for the new technology are Green, Greener and Greenest. Other major benefits get lost on page two!!!!

The first para of their mission statement reads:

We’re an international team of engineers (and a few guys that tend to wear suits too), with a lot of passion and lots of vision.
We want to do something to help change the World - people and planet.

Explains it all really!

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

Many thanks Maine Sail for joining this thread and adding your observations.

The manufacturers of these batteries are in fact Betta Batteries @ Betta Batteries

Axcom are just the German distributors, but their manual is 10 times better than the Betta Batteries site, where their three main reasons for the new technology are Green, Greener and Greenest. Other major benefits get lost on page two!!!!

The first para of their mission statement reads:

We’re an international team of engineers (and a few guys that tend to wear suits too), with a lot of passion and lots of vision.
We want to do something to help change the World - people and planet.

Explains it all really!

I would not doubt that but how can we be sure Betta is not simply slapping a their branded name onto Axcom's technology? This is done all the time in the battery marketplace. Die Hard slaps their bran and sticker onto Odyssey/Enersys technology etc...

I tend to get red flags when a hokey web site, that lacks any sort of technical data, pops out of nowhere claiming the latest and greatest technology but then has nothing to show for it other than some grossly misrepresented marking messages and "green" this and that..

Axcom claims these batteries have been manufactured since 1994. If that is true where is the actual independent testing? on this apparently 20 year old technology?

Perhaps Phil can show us some proof that Betta developed this technology and not Axcom. Perhaps it was a Chinese company that both Axcom and Betta are slapping their branded identities onto... ??

Question: What is the country of origin for these batteries in terms of manufacturing?

Question: Can these batteries sulfate? (simple yes or no answer)



Pardon me for being skeptical but the claims thus far, and the hokey web site, etc. are just not stacking up.....

Also looks like a company called Deltec has the same battery:

Deltec Lead Crystal


Apparently there are many Chinese manufacturers producing lead crystal batteries..

Lead Crystal



It also appears the round swooping logo that appears on many lead crystal batteries belongs to EGE BatteryNote the logo on the lower left of this Betta Battery...

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

...... how can we be sure Betta is not simply slapping a their branded name onto Axcom's technology?

I sent an email to Axcom with a dozen questions asking for more info. They forwarded it to the Battery Manufacturers Betta Batteries. I forwarded the same questions to Betta Batteries and the MD Europe responded with some answers, and saying he had had my questions also from Axcom. He was forwarding them to the engineers but did give some answers.

My Q.7 What is their Peukerts constant?

We do not know, hard to establish given the specific dynamics of our battery. Needs substantial amount of testing values before it can be established.

My Q. 11. Do they Sulfate? If they are used for say 12 months from 50-80% by alternator charging alone and never get back to 100% will this impact on their life-cycles? This is in fact my most important question. If they can do this they are a magic battery – yet you don’t talk about this in any of your literature.

Sulfation (and corrosion also) are both phenomenon that are a result of the use of sulph. acid. Our batteries have substantially less problems with both because we use far less acid. Crystals also ensure an evenly distribution of acid on the plates. They can be used in a partial state of charge, they just need an equalization charge every 6 months min.

I have also pointed him to this thread!!!!! Lets hope we get some more answers.

[ranger58sb]

I like it that Phil Dunn is here and has been very engaged!

Nice to see chemistry details unfolding, too, of course, but in the grand scheme of things I think it's very useful we get a chance to engage with an insider as things develop.

No matter how it all turns out!

-Chris

[goboatingnow]

These batteries look chineese given the results of a googje search. The technology was patented back in 76. I suspect its an old dog in new clothes so to speak !

Dave

[StuM]

Greenies selling "crystal power" which was demonstrated by Green Peas at Copenhagen?

Yeah, I'lll have some of that - not!