Lead Carbon Batteries ??? help advice???

[ski69sail]

Thanks in Advance

I am looking at replacing my 2x Lifleine 250 Ah 12 volt batteries with Narada.....Lead Carbon Batteries.

They seem to be a superior battery, last for 20 yrs, deep discharge, rapid charging acceptance, can survive without a 100% charge every day .And up front purchase price is comparable with AGM etc,etc

What is not to like ??

[rbk]

Charge times and voltage drop is what I’ve come up with.

[john61ct]

IMO taking the marketing hype too literally.

[Jim Cate]

So, has anyone access to real life data for this type of battery? I've done a bit of googling and don't find anything substantive.

Jim

[rbk]

I’d be curious about the voltage drop and how substantial it is. Say if you’re running multiple items how much and does it affect items being run/distance from bank etc and are you limited to how much you can draw at one time.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

So, has anyone access to real life data for this type of battery? I've done a bit of googling and don't find anything substantive.

Jim

Not sure, but I believe the only likely comparable is the testing done by Practical Sailor on "carbon foam", which is the same concept - add carbon to the negative anode of the battery to reduce sulfation from PSOC conditions. I gather different manufacturers are taking different approaches, but what I think you end up with is pretty much a typical battery that doesn't sulphate, so lasts much longer. That's great, but you will still see voltage drop as the battery discharges, and eliminating that is one of the nicest aspects of lithium, IMO.

[olaf hart]

I am interested in these too, the only ones I found seem to be big 2v units for home systems.

The data says they have a lot of charge cycles, but that is only down to 70% SOC.

On paper they look a lot better deal than AGM’s, almost up there with Lithium without the battery management issues...

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Delfin

Not sure, but I believe the only likely comparable is the testing done by Practical Sailor on "carbon foam", which is the same concept - add carbon to the negative anode of the battery to reduce sulfation from PSOC conditions. I gather different manufacturers are taking different approaches, but what I think you end up with is pretty much a typical battery that doesn't sulphate, so lasts much longer. That's great, but you will still see voltage drop as the battery discharges, and eliminating that is one of the nicest aspects of lithium, IMO.

I can but wonder if it is functionally the same as the Firefly units which have quite good reviews. I'd buy those, but they don't seem to be available in Oz,and the shipping costs for small quantities is really prohibitive.

I'm quite used to the voltage drop and don't find it all that disruptive. Would be great to not have it, but I'm not ready for Li as it now stands. Being a full time anchor out, the ability to survive PSOC usage is really attractive to me.

Jim

[Delfin]

In looking at the spec sheet for these, one thing that perplexes is a float voltage of 13.5 for a 12v pack and an equalization voltage of 13.8. Say what?

http://en.naradapower.com/upload/at/...135550512F.pdf

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I can but wonder if it is functionally the same as the Firefly units which have quite good reviews. I'd buy those, but they don't seem to be available in Oz,and the shipping costs for small quantities is really prohibitive.

I'm quite used to the voltage drop and don't find it all that disruptive. Would be great to not have it, but I'm not ready for Li as it now stands. Being a full time anchor out, the ability to survive PSOC usage is really attractive to me.

Jim

Yes, I've with you on that. I was either going to go with the Firefly or a Lithium bank, and to be honest, at the time I really couldn't make up my mind which would be superior. I went with Lithium and am uber happy with it. Like carbon foam, they don't care about PSOC. But, I find the flat voltage Lithium delivers to be very nice, and a lot easier on electronics. And, while the carbon will charge quickly up to 80%, if you want to fully charge them, it takes as long as with typical AGM. With lithium, they accept whatever you put to them up until about 5 minutes from when they won't accept any more current. On a cost per usable Ah, my recollection is that the Lithionics system I bought was about 30% more than the Firefly would have been.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by olaf hart

I am interested in these too, the only ones I found seem to be big 2v units for home systems.

The data says they have a lot of charge cycles, but that is only down to 70% SOC.

On paper they look a lot better deal than AGM’s, almost up there with Lithium without the battery management issues...

The Narada (via Aussie Batteries) folks show a 480 ah 12 v pack that looks quite attractive, and is allegedly available in Oz. It's smaller and lighter than my similar capacity bank of T-105s, and that lights up the warning light for me... too good to be true! (Ahaa! Upon more careful reading of the spec sheet for the 12 V battery, the figures shown are for ONE 2v cell, not the 12 v battery. Very misleading IMO... BS alarm louder now!)

They have a DOD vs cycle life chart, and while it does drop off f or deeper discharges, it's still not too bad at 50+%. One does tend to disbelieve some such data until verified by disinterested judges, though. (There is a small claim that they also cure warts and make you attractive to women in there somewhere, I think)!

So, I'm not so enthusiastic now, but would still like some in use data from real people!

Jim

[jkleins]

Originally Posted by Delfin

Yes, I've with you on that. I was either going to go with the Firefly or a Lithium bank, and to be honest, at the time I really couldn't make up my mind which would be superior. I went with Lithium and am uber happy with it. Like carbon foam, they don't care about PSOC. But, I find the flat voltage Lithium delivers to be very nice, and a lot easier on electronics. And, while the carbon will charge quickly up to 80%, if you want to fully charge them, it takes as long as with typical AGM. With lithium, they accept whatever you put to them up until about 5 minutes from when they won't accept any more current. On a cost per usable Ah, my recollection is that the Lithionics system I bought was about 30% more than the Firefly would have been.

It is the only really annoying thing. If I am in a low SOC like 30% or so which is not too unusual in the morning. I turn on some electronics (microwave, coffee machine) that use 150 amps or so and the voltage goes to 11.2 or 11.3. I have not had any issues with other electronics but normally don’t have anything on in the morning so I don’t know if they would get wonky.
You are correct about getting to 100%. It takes so long I am not sure I have really ever gotten there. :-) But to get to 80-85% is very quick. The real benefit over AGM is that you get to use the, roughly, 50-60% instead of just the 30% or so you can use going between 50 and 80% in an attempt to keep AGM’s healthy.
I think overall the lithium are worth the extra but this is certainly a good way to get 80% of the benefit without changing everything.

JIm

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by jkleins

It is the only really annoying thing. If I am in a low SOC like 30% or so which is not too unusual in the morning. I turn on some electronics (microwave, coffee machine) that use 150 amps or so and the voltage goes to 11.2 or 11.3. I have not had any issues with other electronics but normally don’t have anything on in the morning so I don’t know if they would get wonky.
You are correct about getting to 100%. It takes so long I am not sure I have really ever gotten there. :-) But to get to 80-85% is very quick. The real benefit over AGM is that you get to use the, roughly, 50-60% instead of just the 30% or so you can use going between 50 and 80% in an attempt to keep AGM’s healthy.
I think overall the lithium are worth the extra but this is certainly a good way to get 80% of the benefit without changing everything.

JIm

Great first hand feedback. My impression, which I think you are confirming, is that carbon lead of whatever type behaves just like any other AGM, except that sulphation isn't an issue so you can draw them down to very low SoC. The issue with whether this is bad from a voltage standpoint is a "depends" kind of thing. I fried the PCB on my 24 vdc Kabola due to normal voltage drop on my AGMs, probably when both microwave and boiler were on. Kabola no longer offers a DC option for that reason, so the repair was around $3500 to convert it to ac.

[john61ct]

Firefly "carbon foam" AGM is excellent and unique in its ability to resist PSOC abuse, until you go to LFP, which has other advantages at a higher price.

No relation to other AGM formulations that put the word carbon in, afaict just for marketing purposes.

Best to stick with the well-proven brands with strong reputations in your market.

[Jim Cate]

I'd do it in a flash, but as I posted above, the Firefly units don't seem to be sold in Oz, and the shipping from India for my three units was over 600 USD.

Makes then kinda dear, and then there is a significant delay between disbursement of cash and delivery... and I've heard that some fail from infant mortality, and if that happens, an Ozite is really screwed. wish it were different...

Jim