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Old 19-05-2021, 12:55   #16
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

I went from Mastervolt AGMs to Fullrivers on my last battery replacement. I had always noticed that the Mastervolts didn't have overly high charge acceptance. It was more like what I'd expect from a flooded battery. The Fullrivers (same setup of 2x L16 6v in series) charge far faster. They'll accept more at 90% SOC than the Mastervolts did at 80%.
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Old 19-05-2021, 15:56   #17
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

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$4300 seems a little high for 1200ah in AGM batteries, but still almost $14000 less than the lithium! I get that you see improvement - but was it really worth that cost?

It's also strange to me that one benefit for you has been the lithium charging faster - in my experience, my AGMs charge much faster, especially when running the engine instead of using shore power (I use both - AGMs for my boat batteries, but have a couple lithium-ion power stations I use for running the TV, laptop and other frivolous things)
Do this math 18000÷4300 =4
Now 3 to 4 years before you kill your agm due to PSOC. So 12 to 16 years to spend as much on AGMs but then the next 12 to 16 years the lfp will last is "free vs AGM replacement.
Not to mention that the 18000 gets double the usable ah so ah for ah his lfp is closer cost wise.
I Did a diy of 250ah lfp all in for under $650 .

This chart should help with all decisions. Battery wise.
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Old 19-05-2021, 16:23   #18
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

Newhaul - could you provide that chart in a different format? Maybe a downloadable pdf? The resolution is poor and when I zoom in to try to read it, it is unreadable.
TYIA
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Old 19-05-2021, 17:20   #19
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

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Newhaul - could you provide that chart in a different format? Maybe a downloadable pdf? The resolution is poor and when I zoom in to try to read it, it is unreadable.
TYIA
It was a screen grab. I will try to make it better .
One of the mods on here did it for us .
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Old 19-05-2021, 17:47   #20
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

Ah, I just love me dem watt hours per $. I know you're a proponent of watt hours in lieu of ah, but still... I know, I know, do the math, Stu.
Thanks for the effort.
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Old 19-05-2021, 18:15   #21
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

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We have two 400w residential solar panels (same that I had on my house before selling it to go cruising) and a 400w wind generator.

Wondering where you fit two 400W panels on your ketch? (Since my boat is also a ketch). The 400W size is really huge but I could really use that much power! I'm thinking cost per watt is attractive since so many of that size are made for houses.



The LiFePO's sound awesome, thanks for sharing! An update in a year or so with the same detail would be great - any degradation noted, etc.
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Old 19-05-2021, 18:18   #22
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

We have changed to Lithium as I have been pulling my hair out charging every day with AGM's. Sometimes all day.
The price has dropped enough to make it worth while.
And yes if you change you MUST install a full backup system.
My installation:
2 x 200 Amp/hr Li Batteries
15 amp PCF charger
EMS with cables, sensors and monitor
Perfect switches, RAM 41A Master relay, REM 41A Slave Relay, RYM 41A Uni-directional relay
Plus freight to Malaysia.
Total: $3800 US Dollars.
Half the weight, more usable electricity, everything runs better( fridges, WC)
I did update my solar panels (old and inefficient and replaced my alternators with Balmar.(Not included in the cost)
This change is awesome living on the hook. Yes it is a big change to the electrical system, replaced some wiring to ensure the system is setup properly but I am so glad I did.
Word of warning Do Not try and do it half assed it's worth doing properly, you will not regret it. If I lived in a marina I would not have bothered.
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Old 19-05-2021, 18:31   #23
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

What I find fascinating about Newhaul’s chart, and it all comes down to real-world cycle life, is that good old FLA are the hands down winners on a strictly battery cost level. Yes, the roll-your-own lithium comes out ahead, but to go into a store and buy a replacement battery FLA wins. That doesn’t begin to count the total cost (generator or engine hours spent charging, etc.). Of course, it confirms an opinion I’ve had for some time, so confirmation bias may be at play

There are too many other advantages to lithium for me to ever buy FLA again, but the $ say otherwise. Of course, by the time I get around to installing new batteries maybe the aluminum-ion ones will be ready for prime time.
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Old 19-05-2021, 19:26   #24
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

Noticed an important part of the chart was missing on the top second half .

And no fla doesn't Winn when you take into account the life cycles and usable Whr vs cost .
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Old 19-05-2021, 20:03   #25
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

Well your own chart says that FLA gets ~5-6000 Wh/$ and LiFePo is around 2-4000 Wh/$. The only LiFePo that gets above that is the DIY, which doesn’t account for any cost of labor.

Total cost of ownership (TCO) is a whole other matter, for FLA you’d have to account for the labor involved in two replacements to match lithium, and that’s not shown. Nor are the other things that, to me, make the lithium TCO so compelling. Battery cost isn’t everything.
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Old 19-05-2021, 20:45   #26
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

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Well your own chart says that FLA gets ~5-6000 Wh/$ and LiFePo is around 2-4000 Wh/$. The only LiFePo that gets above that is the DIY, which doesn’t account for any cost of labor.

Total cost of ownership (TCO) is a whole other matter, for FLA you’d have to account for the labor involved in two replacements to match lithium, and that’s not shown. Nor are the other things that, to me, make the lithium TCO so compelling. Battery cost isn’t everything.
Not quite you should look deeper the Trojan c fla is yes 5k w$ but that is at 6 volts so cut the Wh $ in half ( it takes 2 of them to make a single 12 volt battery. ) and at 225ah with 50% usable you need 450 to get the 225 usable I have with my 250ah lfp.

Then there is the weight issue 67 pounds per Trojan 6 volt 225 so 4 of them to have 225 usable ah
27 pounds for 225 usable ah with my lfp .
Labor cost is about the same either way. ( I'm retired shipwright 2 hours labor is 2 hours labor . )
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Old 19-05-2021, 21:22   #27
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

The chart shows cost per Wh (and I spot checked a few). The beauty of Wh instead of Ah is that voltage no longer matters. Doesn’t matter if it takes two 6V or three 4V batteries to get to 12V, the cost per Wh is independent of voltage.

The mean cost of LiFePo is 5100 Wh/$ and the median is about 3100.

My point is that for Joe Average to walk into a store and buy a battery FLA is still the cheapest battery (if you believe the cycle life specs). Not saying lithium can’t be cheaper if you DIY (that’s not for everyone), or that TCO might not be lower, just that battery cost is lower in FLA.
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Old 19-05-2021, 22:21   #28
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

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I could not, would not spend $18,000 to upgrade my battery bank. There are other options. Enjoy your popcorn.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH
I'm a lithium fanboy but agree that the premium charged by 'drop in' or top tier suppliers is outrageous. Especially so when you compare prices for component parts.

My cost has been:

$8500 for 840ah @ 48v. Call it 3400ah equiv @ 12v
$2500 for 2x5000w inverters
$2000 for 5000w of solar panels
$1000 for cables and controls.

Yes, a big system but the intent is to replace all generators on a converted ex commercial trawler, power a keen diver and a electric domestic galley

All prices are Aussie pesos so I'd expect to halve that if buying in the US with USD

Cheers
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Old 19-05-2021, 22:55   #29
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

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We just completed an upgrade from a 1200ah Mastervolt AGM house battery bank to 1200ah Mastervolt Lithium.

We are happy and excited about our new lithium batteries! Our first week was nirvana and we have high hopes that their initial performance will continue.
Interesting, and thank you for the update.

I would never go with AGM's as they are just too fussy, and too expensive.
Currently we are running FLA's and will replace when the time comes (we get around 8+ years out of them) with more FLA's, but the figures you are quoting for your LI system are impressive (other than the price - still per AH/years of life, way above FLA's , but as you say, they are improving all the time).

Certainly nice to have the quick charging (when you have the capacity) and the higher usable energy density!
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Old 20-05-2021, 06:31   #30
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Re: Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

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Do this math 18000÷4300 =4
Now 3 to 4 years before you kill your agm due to PSOC.
Funny thing is, I have two banks of AGM batteries on my boat. One bank is from 2020, I bought myself. The other bank are stamped with a date of 2007, so 14 years ago, from the boat's original owner. And they still have a full charge. I have tested them myself by hand to be sure. I switch back and forth between both banks and I see no difference in voltage or performance.

Now I have owned this boat only two years, and I have no idea how often the batteries were used before that. Maybe they were seldom used. But 14 years is still a hell of a long time. So at the moment I am a little skeptical about the estimated short life of AGMs.

If money was no object, I would go lithium though - one thing I hate about AGMs is how heavy they are and the battery banks are on one side of the boat so I have to put everything heavy on the other side to balance it out.
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