Integrel - alternative to diesel gen set?

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

So it sounds similar to something I proposed a while ago.
Back in the day there were some boats with what was called a "Cruise gen"

As our vessel already has a victron 5000/120amp @ 24v inverter charger I have been thinking of a 6kva MeccAlte generator head with appropriate pulley matched to our usual 1150rpm cruise speed.

These heads are available for around $600



https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mecc-Alte-G...edirect=mobile

A light could be wired to the dash so when generating speed is matched, light comes on indicating power.

120 amps is now smashing into batteries with additional 240v available if required.

Don’t attach that alternator to anything that vibrates like say a Diesel engine! Although petrol or gas engine swill be ok.
I spent time working on small Generator design building and product testing.
To cope with Diesel engine vibration you need to have a full aluminium casting and not 2 aluminium ends bolted through the stator with long 6mm bolts.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

This gearbox allows unlimited freewheeling. When in neutral, it's the disconnect between the engine and the electric motor. The electric motor turns the propshaft - propelling the boat - but also turning the output side of the gearbox. This is the same for regeneration. If it were a conventional gearbox, it would have wear issues after doing this for awhile. The PRM150 doesn't.

Matt, thanks for taking a moment from the sanding and filling, I do feel for you every time you post a video. Sit down and have a cup of tea

Pete

[dannc]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

Most engines are propped to match the engine horse power. The numbers just don't add up for my simple brain! If you take 20Hp of a 29 or 45 hp engine, it does not leave much to turn the prop. This would lead to over working the engine when you under motor. Unless the system disconnects when not needed?

Using 44% of your engine power to generate electricity cannot be efficient, and will also leave your vessel underpowered, unless you have overpowered your engines to allow for the alternator demand.
...

One does not have to run the engines to move the boat at the same time as one is filling up the batteries. Also, for full displacement hulls, one usually does not need the max HP on an engine since the boat is running well below hull speed which leaves plenty of available HP.

Later,
Dan

[IolantheSF]

No impact on performance? 1HP = 746 watts. With drivebelt, alternator, and resistance losses, figure 1KW drains 1.5 HP. OTOH, diesels love to be loaded up to ~80% of peak power, so unless you’re cruising flat out, more load is no issue.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by IolantheSF

No impact on performance? 1HP = 746 watts. With drivebelt, alternator, and resistance losses, figure 1KW drains 1HP. OTOH, diesels love to be loaded up to ~80% of peak power, so unless you’re cruising flat out, more load is no issue.

Other way around, 1kW output is probably using 1.5hp input.

[Bali43Cat]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

Most engines are propped to match the engine horse power. The numbers just don't add up for my simple brain! If you take 20Hp of a 29 or 45 hp engine, it does not leave much to turn the prop. This would lead to over working the engine when you under motor. Unless the system disconnects when not needed?

Using 44% of your engine power to generate electricity cannot be efficient, and will also leave your vessel underpowered, unless you have overpowered your engines to allow for the alternator demand.

As someone said, there are no free watts!

Solar is great, and I will be going strongly in that direction to reduce running the generator...

While you are correct that props are matched to the engine - without a variable pitch prop there is only one sweet spot where the prop even gets remotely close to using 100% of the power available for any given RPM. That is the homework that Integrel did for quite some time and with a lot of proprietary mapping they are able to siphon significant amounts of power from the engine with absolutely no effect on performance.

We've had a dual Integrel system on our Bali 4.8 for about a year and a half and it's life changing. If you know anything about Bali's - they are power hogs with a full size refrigerator, not to mention we've installed a fully electric galley, and 6 - 48v air conditioners (though admittedly don't use very often). The Integrel(s) operate completely in the background and gently ramp up or down depending on your needs of operation and a variety of engine parameters. The large belt has a clever serpentine design that maximizes pully contact and an idler to dampen whatever shock loads there are - though by watching the charging display you can clearly see that Integrel adds and removes loads smartly and digitally using PWM to where there's never an instantaneous on/off. One interesting data point: I just changed our Integrel belts at 500 hrs not so much due to wear but they have stretched a bit. The actual condition of the belts is far better than the stock alternator belts on the Yanmars.

In our case with 4JH57 Yanmars we see about 7-8kw per engine around 1500-1700 rpms when charging only. In our case charging rate is limited by heat at the alternator - I suppose if we increased cooling flow we'd see even more. Regardless, at 16kw going in it doesn't take long to recharge our 43 kWh of MG batteries. After 575 hours the Yanmars run like any others we've operated and oil consumption is nil. Fuel useage when charging appears to be about 1 to 1.5 gallons per hour per engine - pretty much in line with what our previous Onan generator used while putting out significantly less power (due to running at a static RPM regardless of load).

As far as redundancy - obviously 2 engines is nice but in our case there is also the layer of 12v electrical system originally installed at the factory. You can even leave the 12v inverter in to power the refrigerator. By using DC-DC chargers - the 48v bank constantly keeps the 12v fully charged so 12v. appliances/windlass are never starved for voltage and always operate with full power. Should the 48v system fail for whatever reason - the 12v alternators are still operating and, while you won't have Inverter power - almost everything else on the boat remains functional.

As for solar - I wouldn't call it "great" - we have 2200 watts on a stern mounted rack. We typically average 6 - 7 kWh per fully day of charging in the eastern Caribbean in winter months...about what a single Integrel generates in 45 minutes of operation. By the time you spend the money on the rack, the panels, the MPTT's, and the installation - it's a terrible investment. But overtime it does add up and is a nice shade for the dinghy.

Disclaimer: other than a satisfied customer I have no interest in Integrel other than to see them succeed. Being successful in any startup business is tough and these guys have gutted through a lot of ups and downs and I believe fully in their service and product!

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by Bali43Cat

While you are correct that props are matched to the engine - without a variable pitch prop there is only one sweet spot where the prop even gets remotely close to using 100% of the power available for any given RPM. That is the homework that Integrel did for quite some time and with a lot of proprietary mapping they are able to siphon significant amounts of power from the engine with absolutely no effect on performance.

We've had a dual Integrel system on our Bali 4.8 for about a year and a half and it's life changing. If you know anything about Bali's - they are power hogs with a full size refrigerator, not to mention we've installed a fully electric galley, and 6 - 48v air conditioners (though admittedly don't use very often). The Integrel(s) operate completely in the background and gently ramp up or down depending on your needs of operation and a variety of engine parameters. The large belt has a clever serpentine design that maximizes pully contact and an idler to dampen whatever shock loads there are - though by watching the charging display you can clearly see that Integrel adds and removes loads smartly and digitally using PWM to where there's never an instantaneous on/off. One interesting data point: I just changed our Integrel belts at 500 hrs not so much due to wear but they have stretched a bit. The actual condition of the belts is far better than the stock alternator belts on the Yanmars.

In our case with 4JH57 Yanmars we see about 7-8kw per engine around 1500-1700 rpms when charging only. In our case charging rate is limited by heat at the alternator - I suppose if we increased cooling flow we'd see even more. Regardless, at 16kw going in it doesn't take long to recharge our 43 kWh of MG batteries. After 575 hours the Yanmars run like any others we've operated and oil consumption is nil. Fuel useage when charging appears to be about 1 to 1.5 gallons per hour per engine - pretty much in line with what our previous Onan generator used while putting out significantly less power (due to running at a static RPM regardless of load).

As far as redundancy - obviously 2 engines is nice but in our case there is also the layer of 12v electrical system originally installed at the factory. You can even leave the 12v inverter in to power the refrigerator. By using DC-DC chargers - the 48v bank constantly keeps the 12v fully charged so 12v. appliances/windlass are never starved for voltage and always operate with full power. Should the 48v system fail for whatever reason - the 12v alternators are still operating and, while you won't have Inverter power - almost everything else on the boat remains functional.

As for solar - I wouldn't call it "great" - we have 2200 watts on a stern mounted rack. We typically average 6 - 7 kWh per fully day of charging in the eastern Caribbean in winter months...about what a single Integrel generates in 45 minutes of operation. By the time you spend the money on the rack, the panels, the MPTT's, and the installation - it's a terrible investment. But overtime it does add up and is a nice shade for the dinghy.

Disclaimer: other than a satisfied customer I have no interest in Integrel other than to see them succeed. Being successful in any startup business is tough and these guys have gutted through a lot of ups and downs and I believe fully in their service and product!

Thank you for your great input. Very interesting indeed. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to lose the genset!

Your experience will certainly make me take a closer look. Thank you.

[Cerelia]

10kW is about 12 HP, so it seems implausible that it has no impact on propulsion performance. Maybe if propulsion is a large diesel, but most sailboats would be affected.
That 10kWh battery would be charged in an hour.

I’d question the feasibility of pulling off 12 HP with a belt. Maybe a clogged belt would work.

If it sounds too good to be true…

Do plenty of homework before parting with money.

Gary Nelson

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by Cerelia

10kW is about 12 HP, so it seems implausible that it has no impact on propulsion performance. Maybe if propulsion is a large diesel, but most sailboats would be affected.
That 10kWh battery would be charged in an hour.

I’d question the feasibility of pulling off 12 HP with a belt. Maybe a clogged belt would work.

If it sounds too good to be true…

Do plenty of homework before parting with money.

Gary Nelson

I just returned from Düsseldorf and attended the Boot show where they had a booth there. Spent nearly 2 hours with their team grilling them on the their product. This coupled with personally speaking with multiple owners who’ve had these systems installed and sailing a couple thousand miles aboard boats with them, I’ve done my homework. It’s a phenomenal product that is not too good to be true & I’m parting with my money.

[bjornfb]

Originally Posted by Paws-on-Paws

Anyone out there with first hand experience how this works?

We have an Integrel and Lithium batteries and it just works. We run the engine a little bit each morning and evening to get on and off the anchor, out of the bay, etc, and just that is enough to keep the batteries charged in spite of all our electrical dooh dads. There is no performance penalty. In fact, the only thing we notice is that we hear the subtle shift in the engine after the batteries are full and it stops charging, but only because we’ve had the boat so long that we know every sound.

So, yes, totally satisfied. Trouble-free, trivial to use (easier than trivial: it just works without any user input). Definitely recommend the system.

-Bjorn

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by bjornfb

We have an Integrel and Lithium batteries and it just works. We run the engine a little bit each morning and evening to get on and off the anchor, out of the bay, etc, and just that is enough to keep the batteries charged in spite of all our electrical dooh dads. There is no performance penalty. In fact, the only thing we notice is that we hear the subtle shift in the engine after the batteries are full and it stops charging, but only because we’ve had the boat so long that we know every sound.

So, yes, totally satisfied. Trouble-free, trivial to use (easier than trivial: it just works without any user input). Definitely recommend the system.

-Bjorn

Thank you, very interesting. If you don't mind answering a Q or 5?

What size engine do you run?
Do you have a genset as well?
Do you have aircon that you run regularly?
How much solar do you have?
Battery bank size?

Thanks in advance, really appreciate the answers.

[bjornfb]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

Thank you, very interesting. If you don't mind answering a Q or 5?

What size engine do you run?
Do you have a genset as well?
Do you have aircon that you run regularly?
How much solar do you have?
Battery bank size?

Thanks in advance, really appreciate the answers.

1. 80hp Yanmar
2. No genset
3. No aircon (but we do run our Espar Airtronic heater almost 24 hours a day when out cruising, except in the summer)
4. No solar
5. 280Ah of 48v lithium plus 360Ah of 12v AGM.
We just leave the 48v to 12v DC-DC charger on all the time, so the 12v bank isn’t really any extra capacity. What I mean is that because the DC-DC keeps the 12v topped up, even our 12v loads are effectively using the 48v bank. And since the Integrel finishes refilling the 48v before we are done with the engine each day, we are effectively “wasting” engine time. If instead we turned the DC-DC off when the engine is off, the 12v loads would draw from the 12v bank and then the “extra unused” engine time would be used to refill the 12v bank.
If we added aircon we would probably want more 48v capacity.

Cheers,
-Bjorn

[dhenline]

I am currently in the process of getting a new boat and have entertained the idea of getting the integral system. My "catch" is I plan on using AC in both sides of the catamaran during the night. that seems like I would then need a pretty large bank of batteries to power those AC units. if I planed on using about 15k BTU can anyone give me a guess about how big a battery bank I would need and what would be the cost?

From what I can figure if I follow what the dealer says, I can easily envision 75 k to just have AC. 25 k for the installation, 25 k for two integral units and I wont be surprised if the lithium batteries to store that energy come to 25K.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by dhenline

I am currently in the process of getting a new boat and have entertained the idea of getting the integral system. My "catch" is I plan on using AC in both sides of the catamaran during the night. that seems like I would then need a pretty large bank of batteries to power those AC units. if I planed on using about 15k BTU can anyone give me a guess about how big a battery bank I would need and what would be the cost?

From what I can figure if I follow what the dealer says, I can easily envision 75 k to just have AC. 25 k for the installation, 25 k for two integral units and I wont be surprised if the lithium batteries to store that energy come to 25K.

According to my manual our AC’s are rated at 1500 watt each, so that’s 3000w for both. I am no Guru at this in fact I am just learning. I am guessing that’s their max rating, like on start up. Let’s say they average 2000w (low??) once going(have not checked mine, will do next time onboard) and you run for 8 hours, that would be 16000w just for the AC. When my wife and I are alone onboard we only run the our side AC, that seems to make quite a difference to our diesel usage. I eagerly await to see how accurate or not my understanding and assumptions are, I am sure those in the know will point out my shortcomings!

I am eager to see as I too am interested in this setup to replace the generator.

[Adelie]

2000W X 8hr is 16000Whr. Learning how units work helps with clarity, now when other people read what you right and later when you look back at your written work and try to refresh yourself with how you figured stuff out. Also it keeps the units pedants from harassing you, there are number of those here on CF.

If you already have one of these AC units it would be a good move to buy a power meter and measure consumption vs temp for one or several nights to get an idea what actual usage will be.

I have a Kill-a-Watt meter which is acceptable.