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02-05-2016, 08:27
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon, Ohio
Boat: '87 Ericson 34
Posts: 5
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I am an electrical dunce........HELP
I cannot believe I am such an idiot when it comes to electricity layout and diagnosing problems!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banghead :
I have a couple sources for trying to learn, but just can't seem to get the info to stick or be useful!!
Is there any source anybody else has found helpful :sm ile: .
The most recent problem reared its ugly head recently. My batteries have been loosing charge. I have several wires coming directly off my batteries. I know this is not good, and am trying to figure out where these wires run, and how to move them to the panel so they continue to function properly (whatever that function may be .
One I discovered went directly to the frig. I disconnected the ground and positive wires.
Then I noticed some corrosion on the + posts, and some also at a connector that was in another red wire coming directly off one battery. That wire was also a little warm. I cut both it and the grnd wire it seemed to run with.......I traced both back to the battery charger running off my shore power.
I read the owners manual for the battery charger and if I am understanding things correctly, there were several options to connect the red (+) wire I cut......one of which was "Direct to Positive post of battery being charged(single bank only)", and the ground (-) to "Alternator Ground Terminal".
There are three other options to connecting the red wire I cut: "Alternator positive battery output"; "common side of battery switch","isolator terminal supplying main battery bank".
My questions regarding the present problem are:
1. Were these two wires connected properly before.......and if so, why did the problem just arise?
2. Should I run the red wire (I previously cut and was going directly to one of the two batteries) to the "Alternator positive battery output", and the black wire (which I also cut) to the "Alternator ground terminal"?
Thanks so much for any help you can give this electrical dunce
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02-05-2016, 12:33
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 5,176
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
If you don't understand electricity, you should not be cutting wires on your boat or randomly connecting them to different places. You will not solve the existing problem and will create additional problems.
Nobody was born understanding electricity, it comes from education and experience. You have two choices:
1) Learn about electricity. Some can learn from books but many will have to take actual classes where they can ask the teacher when they don't understand.
2) Pay a pro to do your electrical work. Some folks just don't have the aptitude and will never understand even after years of schooling.
__________________
Ron
HIGH COTTON
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02-05-2016, 12:38
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#3
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Eternal Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,046
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
You get an A+ for recognizing that you are "an electrical dunce".
Another A+ for proving just that in your posting: cutting wires, willy nilly, and general remarks re: your boat's electrical system.
However, what you really need to do....and I mean this most respectfully....is to STOP playing with your electrical system before you hurt yourself or burn down your boat or.....
You need to hire a professional MARINE electrician, not someone who does house wiring, and have him/her look at your boat with you and make recommendations. That will take 1-2 hours, and cost under $200.
In the end, it will save you big bucks and hours of spinning your wheels and worse.
FWIW,
Bill
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03-05-2016, 16:56
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lake Ont
Posts: 8,547
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
Quote:
Originally Posted by calhdl
The most recent problem reared its ugly head recently. My batteries have been loosing charge.
...
My questions regarding the present problem are:
1. Were these two wires connected properly before.......and if so, why did the problem just arise?
2. Should I run the red wire (I previously cut and was going directly to one of the two batteries) to the "Alternator positive battery output", and the black wire (which I also cut) to the "Alternator ground terminal"?
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the numbered questions first.
1) Just a guess - those charger wires were sort-of, maybe, connected ok, if they have or had successfully charged the batteries. Hard to be certain, we know so little about everything in your boat. btw, a permanently-attached connection to a DC charger should have a fuse in the charger positive wire, close to the battery, sized to protect the wire.
If this wire position worked before, it's not the problem.
2) No, don't. It won't do anything different or better.
"Losing charge" here's some possibilities:
- Your batteries aren't being charged
- You're sucking too much out of them
- One or more of your batteries are shot
A good book, a knowledgeable friend, or a decent boat electrician can help you check all these points. From your description, it sounds like the boat wiring is in need of some attention.
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03-05-2016, 18:14
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: seattle ish
Boat: youngquist viking 34
Posts: 112
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
The pitting and gradually worse performance could both be related to two many stacked connections or bad conectiins micro arcing and burnig the connection.
Disconecting a failing circut is a good thing bu be sure what you are cutting. And that you cut the right ground.
Personally I like Nigel Caulders books. I find him readable, clear, acurate and he lives on boats so it is not pie in the sky unworkable **** only an engineer can dream up.
I took a seminar he was teaching at the boatshow, paid for my mechanic to attend with me we both learned a lot. Money well spent.
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03-05-2016, 18:18
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
It's a good start. Take your time and you will be able to clean your system up and understand it.
__________________
Paul
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03-05-2016, 18:19
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: seattle ish
Boat: youngquist viking 34
Posts: 112
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
This is my go to book. No that is not my mechanic napping by it.
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03-05-2016, 19:08
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lake Ont
Posts: 8,547
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
Quote:
Originally Posted by wooden head
This is my go to book.
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You are clearly a group of fine sailors with good sense. That's my main boat book too.
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03-05-2016, 19:24
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 585
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
If you've had continual load on your batteries and a shore charger continuously recharging, your "loss" may be the result of low electrolyte level in your batteries' cells. Check the cells and add de-ionized water to fill each to the proper level, then charge the batteries fully.
If you know little about electricity, including your batteries and charging system, an investment in a SmartGuage would pay you dividends.
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03-05-2016, 19:46
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 20,420
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
Yes, Calder.
I also like Payne's Bible.
b.
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03-05-2016, 21:17
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bowen Island, BC
Posts: 107
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel
Yes, Calder. I also like Payne's Bible.
b.
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How many electrical bibles does one recommend reading, Barnakiel, before deciding to cut wire?
I'm good at physics, but marine electric scares me; knowing the potentially dire consequences of screwing up. In the end, I've predetermined that I will pick up an extra shift at work to pay for an experienced marine electrician.
Smart enough to know I'm not smart enough!
__________________
“Who is staring at the sea is already sailing a little.”
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04-05-2016, 08:40
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Anacortes
Boat: previous - Whitby 42 new - Goldenwave 44
Posts: 1,835
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
I have used the Calder books, both editions, for years as a reference. I learned a lot from them. However, IMO, they are not good for someone who does not have the electrical gene in their DNA. I don't mean this disparaging but there seem to be some who just have a difficult time with it. I'm sort of medium this way. Others get it by osmosis quickly.
You would be better off starting with one of the easier primers on marine electrical basics. I can't remember off my faulty memory banks but they are the place to start. You may have the right DNA but if you start with a book that gets overly dense very quickly, like IMO Calder is, you may get overwhelmed and decide to bag it. This is likely to be a controversial statement but it is my experience.
Even if you decide to hire out much of your electrical work you need at least a basic understanding of electricity and marine electrical systems to even own and use a boat. Otherwise, make sure you have towing insurance and deep pockets to get even minor work done.
But you can figure it out. Start with the basics of electricity first - DC and AC and then on to basic circuits, like lighting, panels, bilge pump wiring, etc. You can learn a lot by troubleshooting but you need the basics to even start to learn that. Otherwise you don't have a clue what you are looking at.
I have several friends who are so good at rigging and sailing that I marvel at their wisdom and abilities. I am not good as they are for those subjects. But those same friends are continually mystified by electricity, even in its basic forms, much less the technically challenging parts like battery charging issues. You'll only sort those out when you can understand the basics.
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04-05-2016, 09:38
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,034
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
I started out years ago with buying and using (a lot) a multi meter, on top of reading and re-reading Payne, Calder, et als. One who is not electrically savvy would be surprised how many issues can be diagnosed with multi meter before "cutting" anything. And the correct diagnosis takes you at least half way toward solving the problem. Not to mention saving one big bucks fixing small fixable problems. Like fridge not working. I was almost ready to throw in the towel and order a new one when poking around with my trusty multi meter led me to find a loose negative connection at the control box. And many other fixes like that.
PS I would never putz around by myself with AC circuit though. That's where a mistake can be so costly health wise.
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04-05-2016, 10:24
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 9,704
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman
Nobody was born understanding electricity, it comes from education and experience. You have two choices:
1) Learn about electricity. Some can learn from books but many will have to take actual classes where they can ask the teacher when they don't understand.
2) Pay a pro to do your electrical work. Some folks just don't have the aptitude and will never understand even after years of schooling.
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Ron and I and many others have been saying this for years. Good to admit you're just starting out.
This might help, includes books and primers and LOTS of material, all in one place:
Electrical Systems 101 Electrical Systems 101
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
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04-05-2016, 20:23
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: seattle ish
Boat: youngquist viking 34
Posts: 112
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Re: I am an electrical dunce........HELP
Paying a pro is all well and good but finding a good competent marine electritian can be tough. I have talked to several people who sell marine electrical items, and repeatedly they have told me there is almost noboby in the area they trust to do wiring.
They tell me there is no reliable credentials it's mostly the expirience yard mechanic that also does some electric and some of that is clearly not done to abyc or any other marine standard.
I don't know first hand if they are right about the general state but I have seen "pro's" do some pretty bad work. That is why I go educated to do my own or at least know enough to recognize bad work.
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