How to keep your batteries healthy and long lived

[conachair]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

Float set to the absorption voltage is a very very good idea. My Morningstar MPPT controller has an option to NOT GO TO FLOAT.

How often due you get to less than 1% of capacity in Ah? I assume from your post that you will be measuring this at the absorption voltage of 14.8v. Many think they can use this test at Float voltage, which in my case is 4-5 times LESS current than at Absorption voltage.

Need to log it to know for sure as we big brained monkeys have such a habit of seeing things the way we'd like them to be
Guessing about half the time maybe in summer getting under 1% at 14.9V, I like it high By that time in the afternoon the fridge really shows itself with the sun low as seen in the graph last post, that's usually when you'll see the low current being enough to push the voltage up to 14.9V.
And smile

[john61ct]

I have no problems trying unusual charge profiles, but no way just putting raw panel output to the batt, unless like 5W in a 12V panel being floated in off-grid storage.

Especially since so many panels for MPPT these days are at 30+V

[Olddave]

Originally Posted by conachair

[*]Equalize once a month or so, maybe a bit less if SG of the cells have very little variation.

Conachair
I’m no expert, however, I bought a pair of Trojan 105’s a year ago. I noted in the Trojan User Guide that came with them, under section 3.4.2 Equalising; “Trojan recommends equalising only when batteries have low S.G. Below 1.235 or wide rangingS.G. >0.030 points between cells after fully charging.”
So I wouldn’t be equalising once a month, in fact, I’m not equalising at all.
It is also interesting to note in section 5 re How to maximise the performance of your Trojan Battery, they state; “Do not discharge your battery more than 80%. This safety factor will eliminate the chance of overdischarging and damaging your battery.”
Very happy with mine so far.
Dave

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Olddave

.... I noted in the Trojan User Guide that came with them, under section 3.4.2 Equalising; “Trojan recommends equalising only when batteries have low S.G. Below 1.235 or wide rangingS.G. >0.030 points between cells after fully charging.....

Trojan's User Guide is just that - a guide.

You need a book to understand why and when equalising is important.

Their most relevant "GUIDE" is this:

"Batteries should be fully charged after each use."

All battery manufacturers say the same, but since this is almost impossible when cruising you need to understand when EQ is necessary. One that has been especially helpful is Lifeline. Their 37 page manual should enlighten you - and their subsequent postings on many forums:

'Justin Godber at Lifeline defined what expected battery life should be, depending on charge regime, assuming daily discharge to 50% and full time voyaging:

Fully charged after each discharge (not feasible on a voyaging boat). Estimated life: 6-9 Years.
Fully recharged at least once a week and equalized once a month. Estimated life: 4-6 Years.
Only recharged to 85% and equalized once a month. Estimated life: 2-4 years.
Only charged to 85% and never equalized. Estimated life: 1 year.'

This message cannot be repeated often enough - even though everyone misinterpreted this message and went on to say that AGMs must be charged more regularly that other batteries!

On the same website he went on to say that AGMs are Lead Acid batteries and they ALL Need to be fully charged after each discharge.

I should add that my Lifelines have lasted 13 years and I can still stay at anchor for 4 days with only 140w of solar - but I do charge once every two weeks and I only equalise twice a year. Its all about how quickly the Lead Sulfate crystals harden.

[Olddave]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

Trojan's User Guide is just that - a guide.

You need a book to understand why and when equalising is important.

Their most relevant "GUIDE" is this:

"Batteries should be fully charged after each use."

All battery manufacturers say the same, but since this is almost impossible when cruising you need to understand when EQ is necessary. One that has been especially helpful is Lifeline. Their 37 page manual should enlighten you - and their subsequent postings on many forums:

'Justin Godber at Lifeline defined what expected battery life should be, depending on charge regime, assuming daily discharge to 50% and full time voyaging:

Fully charged after each discharge (not feasible on a voyaging boat). Estimated life: 6-9 Years.
Fully recharged at least once a week and equalized once a month. Estimated life: 4-6 Years.
Only recharged to 85% and equalized once a month. Estimated life: 2-4 years.
Only charged to 85% and never equalized. Estimated life: 1 year.'

This message cannot be repeated often enough - even though everyone misinterpreted this message and went on to say that AGMs must be charged more regularly that other batteries!

On the same website he went on to say that AGMs are Lead Acid batteries and they ALL Need to be fully charged after each discharge.

I should add that my Lifelines have lasted 13 years and I can still stay at anchor for 4 days with only 140w of solar - but I do charge once every two weeks and I only equalise twice a year. Its all about how quickly the Lead Sulfate crystals harden.

Legend,
That’s interesting because the Trojan Users Guide also says”WARNING do not equalise deep-cycle AGM or gel batteries”
Do they just say these things for fun?
Dave

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Olddave

Conachair
I’m no expert, however, I bought a pair of Trojan 105’s a year ago. I noted in the Trojan User Guide that came with them, under section 3.4.2 Equalising; “Trojan recommends equalising only when batteries have low S.G. Below 1.235 or wide rangingS.G. >0.030 points between cells after fully charging.”
So I wouldn’t be equalising once a month, in fact, I’m not equalising at all.
It is also interesting to note in section 5 re How to maximise the performance of your Trojan Battery, they state; “Do not discharge your battery more than 80%. This safety factor will eliminate the chance of overdischarging and damaging your battery.”
Very happy with mine so far.
Dave

Possibly less equalising if the batteries really are getting back up to 100% regularly, without massive expensive long term testing we can't really know much....
Worth bearing in mind most t105's are probably in machinery like work platforms, floor sweepers etc so trojan advice is probably aimed at the average getting best out of all the batteries they sell, may or may not be the best for a battery on a sailing boat. I have no qualms about giving mine a good zap at 15.5v for an hour or so now and again, tough as old boots batteries

[Olddave]

Originally Posted by conachair

Possibly less equalising if the batteries really are getting back up to 100% regularly, without massive expensive long term testing we can't really know much....
Worth bearing in mind most t105's are probably in machinery like work platforms, floor sweepers etc so trojan advice is probably aimed at the average getting best out of all the batteries they sell, may or may not be the best for a battery on a sailing boat. I have no qualms about giving mine a good zap at 15.5v for an hour or so now and again, tough as old boots batteries

Conachair
Prompted by Sailinglegend to look more into the detail, I have found that the online version of the Trojan Guide recommends monthly equalising.
Looking at the Lifeline web page I see that they recommend equalising for their AGM batteries. It seems that all batteries are not made equal.
My take from all this is to follow the specific manufacturers advice. Unfortunately I am now unsure about equalising my Trojans.
Dave

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Olddave

Legend,
That’s interesting because the Trojan Users Guide also says”WARNING do not equalise deep-cycle AGM or gel batteries”....

What they should have said is don't equalise "OUR" AGMs, but they are not going to expose themselves to the facts that there are much better AGMs out there.

But beware - not all AGM's are created equal - Lifeline's quote. Solar or Telecom AGMs are not designed for daily discharge to 50% and are not designed to be on a boat regularly falling off two metre waves. Sorry et's not turn this into another AGM thread!!!

Most manufacturers of marine equipment are less than honest with the truth!!! This is why I post on here to try and set the record straight.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

What they should have said is don't equalise "OUR" AGMs, but they are not going to expose themselves to the facts that there are much better AGMs out there.

But beware - not all AGM's are created equal - Lifeline's quote. Solar or Telecom AGMs are not designed for daily discharge to 50% and are not designed to be on a boat regularly falling off two metre waves. Sorry et's not turn this into another AGM thread!!!

Most manufacturers of marine equipment are less than honest with the truth!!! This is why I post on here to try and set the record straight.

Right, which leads to the question which are the better AGMs out there? Oh and what is the definition of better? best bang for buck, longest life expectancy or cheapest price?

The one I am always interested in is best bang for buck battery which at present for me is FLA.

Pete

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Right, which leads to the question which are the better AGMs out there?

I did ask NOT to turn this into another AGM thread!!!

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

These vloggers have been living off the grid 30 years with Trojans. 7.5 to 10yr life and no fancy monitoring systems......

I'm surprised nobody has criticised this video yet!!!!

Yes they have done well with their batteries lasting under a lot of abuse - but they are Trojans!! If these were sealed they would lose a lot of water and not last nearly as long.

Why are there so many technical misunderstandings?

They say use no regulators on their solar because they cut down the voltage when it reaches 14.4v because the batteries get hot. They also don't understand equalisation.

Correction - if the batteries get too hot because of the climate the charging voltage will and should be set lower to stop the batteries gassing too much. If you don't have a regulator the voltage can and will get to an equalising voltage when there is a small load. But with solar it can never get to 15.5v for long enough to do a proper EQ job.

They also talk about cutting out the diodes in the solar panels to avoid the voltage drops from these blocking diodes.

Correction - these are bypass diodes not blocking diodes. Blocking diodes would be needed to stop feedback into the panels at night but this should be achieved with a solar regulator. Bypass diodes are exactly the same diodes but are wired differently within the panel across strings of cells to increase the solar output if cells get shaded. So cutting them out has also removed the protection they give to the shaded cells from over heating.

At least the solar panels are partially covered when they leave the boat. But even 10 watts of solar can increase the voltage well above 14.4v. Also it is not the charging current from they panels that cause the problems it's the high voltage held for too long when the batteries are already fully charged. So leave the boat for a month with 15.5v on the batteries will do a lot of damage.

I hope this helps.

[Olddave]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

What they should have said is don't equalise "OUR" AGMs, but they are not going to expose themselves to the facts that there are much better AGMs out there.

But beware - not all AGM's are created equal - Lifeline's quote. Solar or Telecom AGMs are not designed for daily discharge to 50% and are not designed to be on a boat regularly falling off two metre waves. Sorry et's not turn this into another AGM thread!!!

Most manufacturers of marine equipment are less than honest with the truth!!! This is why I post on here to try and set the record straight.

👍 No doubt Lifeline and Trojan make good batteries that last well. If I outlast my current batteries I will probably try LiFe PO
Dave

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Olddave

.......If I outlast my current batteries I will probably try LiFe PO....Dave

You can't just "TRY" Lipos or AGMs - they have to installed as a system with good battery charging and monitoring - AND - you have to fully understand they system otherwise Lipos or AGMs can be a very expensive mistake. Ooops sorry - not trying to make this into a thread drift to a Lipos or AGMs!

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

I did ask NOT to turn this into another AGM thread!!!

That isn't your call, any member may ask a supplementary question.

Pete

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

You can't just "TRY" Lipos or AGMs - they have to installed as a system with good battery charging and monitoring - AND - you have to fully understand they system otherwise Lipos or AGMs can be a very expensive mistake. Ooops sorry - not trying to make this into a thread drift to a Lipos or AGMs!

LiFePO4s such as those sold by relion, pretty much run on AGM charging profiles.

This is direct from two of their employees:

Out batteries have an internal BMS that handles the balancing of the cells, so you don’t need to worry about that.
Our most current spec sheets indicate you can charge our batteries between 14.0 -14.6V

It is completely fine and safe to charge up to 14.6V, in fact, LiFePO4 can handle a higher voltage...Please note, that our recommended charge voltage is 14.2V – 14.6V, however balancing will not take place unless it is charged to 14.4

What you tend to get on Cruisersform is people going out and buying their own cells and creating there own 12v battery system, that may or may not have different characteristics than the cells used by Relion, and a BMS to different specifications.

On the subject of balancing FLA. IIRC, the guy from Pacific Yacht Systems seems to think it's not worth the bother, unless you are desperate to get every little bit of possible life out of the bank. So perhaps the batters will last 8 years instead of 9 etc..