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**s/v Jedi** · 01-02-2020, 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Very funny Newhaul. You do know that this site operates as a for profit LLC right? Without our content there would be no forum. Now we get a guy like Steve on here, who's profession is to give marine related advice, and he is willing to offer his advice and answer questions here, for free and you want to heckle him into being a supporter?!!

Agree 100% Steve is offering more to CF than 99% of the members, even if they pay to be a supporter.

I used to be much more active on CF and have been a supporter since that it exists... but this year is the first time I actually paid for it. The rest was given to me as a thank you for the content I provided. Without those who post knowledgeable info, this forum would be a joke.
I may target Steve with my posts but that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate him because I do and he actually (unlike some other rambling members) knows what he writes about. It’s just that my POV is from a much wider frame of reference, probably because of me coming from a different continent

**newhaul** · 01-02-2020, 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Very funny Newhaul. You do know that this site operates as a for profit LLC right? Without our content there would be no forum. Now we get a guy like Steve on here, who's profession is to give marine related advice, and he is willing to offer his advice and answer questions here, for free and you want to heckle him into being a supporter?!!

no not heckle him not in the least.

I am a supporter because I feel it is the right thing to do .
I have gotten a couple jobs due to people seeing my postings on this forum so its not paying to support the forum . To me I see it like I should for that simple fact alone .
I benefited financially from being a member here . ( no I didn't solicit for the work I'm retired I don't like to work)

**GordMay** · 01-02-2020, 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by newhaul

Simple i would say here is the hold harmless contract they signed.

Typically, a hold harmless agreement doesn’t apply, if a party has acted intentionally, or negligently (as in ignoring standard practice and standards).

slug · 01-02-2020, 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio

"Then why (when I google electric shock drowning milliamps) does everyone say that 10-20 milliamps can paralyze a person enough that they can't swim and then drown?"

That is the threshold for the current that the person in the water encounters, not the current leaving the source of the fault, it begins to spread out from the source as it travels away. It spreads out less in fresh water which is why virtually all ESD's occur in FW.

"RCDs would prevent all of this. If all boats were required to have RCDs on their main power entrance, lower threshold RCDs on all branch circuits as well as the dock having RCD protection, we would have a triple safeguard against an RCD failure."

We do, well at least ABYC does, with the mandate for ELCIs on inlets (with some exceptions) and GFCIs' on high risk branch circuits.

"Then can we eliminate the connection between the shore power ground and the boats bonding system? (I know you will say no, and that the earth/bonding connection is the "holy grail" of AYBC and other institutions)"

In theory this may work but you would then be putting all your eggs in the single RCD/ELCI basket, which is risky.

"I am not sure of your motive for joining this forum but hope that you will stick around and help us debate these issues. And thanks for agreeing with me that GFCIs can be a simple affordable and even DIY upgrade to a boats AC electrical system."

My motive? You've made it sound as if I have a sinister plan;-) Seriously, no motive other than when I have some down time, and am not traveling, I enjoy sharing my experience and debating worthy subjects on forums like this one, and will do so as long as the discourse remains civil and professional.

"...welcome to the forum Steve DAntonio, I am sure that everyone here has read some of your articles at one time or another and I know that you are not in a position to state anything contrary to the established procedure (AYBC) concerning safety on docks and boats."

Thank you. Rest assured, if I disagree with an ABYC Standard I'll say so, I'm not bound to agree, and in fact I am frequently a thorn in their side. I don't practice knee-jerk, 'you must do this because the standards say so' consulting. Contrary to the opinions of some here, most ABYC Standards, while not perfect, make good sense, they have no ulterior nefarious motive to drive up the cost of boat ownership or support insurance companies, as I noted in an earlier post they are not written by bureaucrats, they are rooted in technical fact, using the practical experience of committee members, they make boats safer and more reliable. I literal utilize them in one form or another every day. Here are two, of many, examples wherein I disagree, ABYC Standards say batteries, once installed, can move up to an inch, and permanent fuel tanks, once installed, can move up to a quarter inch. I think both of those make little sense, my boat building protocol calls for complete immobilization in both cases.

Careful when recommending that batteries be installed “ immobilized “. Batteries can swell significantly . This swell must be accounted for

It’s true that batteries must be secured to withstand extreme forces applied in directions

Steve DAntonio · 01-02-2020, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by slug

Careful when recommending that batteries be installed “ immobilized “. Batteries can swell significantly . This swell must be accounted for

It’s true that batteries must be secured to withstand extreme forces applied in directions

Let me begin by saying I welcome dissenting opinions, so keep them coming, having to defend my positions reminds me to craft my recommendations carefully.

If batteries swell significantly you probably have bigger problems than immobility.

SVRLA batteries, AGMs and Gels, because they operate with an internal pressure of about 1.5 psi, can bulge slightly laterally, a clamp across the top of the battery would have no effect on this distortion. Restricting it would also have no effect on the battery or its operation.

Batteries on seagoing motor and sailing vessels are routinely clamped in the manner shown in the article link I shared, with no detrimental side effects.

A couple of years ago I made a passage from Tromsø Norway to the Svalbard archipelago, all well above the Arctic Circle, aboard a 68 foot motor vessel. We stuffed the bow into wave after wave, coming to a near bone-jarring halt each time, it went on for about 18 hours before we were able to finally take refuge in the lee of Bear Island; it was truly horrendous. During my watches I tried to think of all the things that could go wrong. High on that list was propulsion and steering, if we lost either we could very well have foundered. After that it was electrical, the endless shock loading and vibration, not to mention the continuous drenching in seawater, had me wondering how long the the vessel's electrical system could endure it without some type of failure. If the batteries were able to move one inch with each wave cycle, I can't imagine they, or their associated wiring, could have endured this punishment without some type of failure (I consulted on the construction of that vessel; the batteries were clamped in place). As it turned out, the vessel handled it all with no problem, the crew not so much, I get seasick and that passage is etched in my memory as the worst of the worst. The destination made it more than worth it. You can read about it here
https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/w...e-Svalbard.pdf

slug · 02-02-2020, 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio

Let me begin by saying I welcome dissenting opinions, so keep them coming, having to defend my positions reminds me to craft my recommendations carefully.

If batteries swell significantly you probably have bigger problems than immobility.

SVRLA batteries, AGMs and Gels, because they operate with an internal pressure of about 1.5 psi, can bulge slightly laterally, a clamp across the top of the battery would have no effect on this distortion. Restricting it would also have no effect on the battery or its operation.

Batteries on seagoing motor and sailing vessels are routinely clamped in the manner shown in the article link I shared, with no detrimental side effects.

A couple of years ago I made a passage from Tromsø Norway to the Svalbard archipelago, all well above the Arctic Circle, aboard a 68 foot motor vessel. We stuffed the bow into wave after wave, coming to a near bone-jarring halt each time, it went on for about 18 hours before we were able to finally take refuge in the lee of Bear Island; it was truly horrendous. During my watches I tried to think of all the things that could go wrong. High on that list was propulsion and steering, if we lost either we could very well have foundered. After that it was electrical, the endless shock loading and vibration, not to mention the continuous drenching in seawater, had me wondering how long the the vessel's electrical system could endure it without some type of failure. If the batteries were able to move one inch with each wave cycle, I can't imagine they, or their associated wiring, could have endured this punishment without some type of failure (I consulted on the construction of that vessel; the batteries were clamped in place). As it turned out, the vessel handled it all with no problem, the crew not so much, I get seasick and that passage is etched in my memory as the worst of the worst. The destination made it more than worth it. You can read about it here
https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/w...e-Svalbard.pdf

I frequently come face to face with Absolyte battery systems
https://www.exide.com/eu/en/product/absolyte-gp

These systems are common on large yachts

They are individual 2v cells inserted into a tight tolerance. steel cage

Beautiful system... a tight fit ....but , nothing is perfect

When service requires that a cell be removed , swelling , may ruin your day

This swell could very well be a failed cell

stevec195 · 22-02-2020, 06:29

If I have a hot neutral every time I use my E2000, and it does not lend a lot of confidence in safety or conformity to ABYC standard. Additionally, I’ve found applications that will completely reject E2000 output for this same reason. I’m going to modify neutral to ground and see what happens. I perhaps won’t be touching the output to my tongue while standing in a puddle of water in bare feet.

**s/v Jedi** · 22-02-2020, 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevec195

If I have a hot neutral every time I use my E2000, and it does not lend a lot of confidence in safety or conformity to ABYC standard. Additionally, I’ve found applications that will completely reject E2000 output for this same reason. I’m going to modify neutral to ground and see what happens. I perhaps won’t be touching the output to my tongue while standing in a puddle of water in bare feet.

No, please don’t spread misinformation. The Honda is legal and it’s safe. It is a portable genset, and as long as you don’t drive a grounding rod into the ground and connect that to the Honda’s ground lug, you can safely stand in a puddle of water and touch it’s neutral. That said, would you do that with a grounded neutral from a safe outlet ashore? If not,then also don’t do it with a portable genset.

As soon as you make the Honda part of the electrical installation of a boat by modifying it for fixed install, all of it’s approvals are void and the installation is in violation with ABYC recommendations. You need to buy a fixed install marine genset for that application.

Steve DAntonio · 27-03-2020, 11:49

RECALL NOTICE: Seems electrocution, or CO poisoning may not be the issue after all with these portable gensets... In fairness, salt water is an issue with any electrical component.

https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/n...4-a97913160271

skenn_ie · 27-03-2020, 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio

RECALL NOTICE: Seems electrocution, or CO poisoning may not be the issue after all with these portable gensets... In fairness, salt water is an issue with any electrical component.

https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/n...4-a97913160271

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