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30-01-2020, 07:16
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#91
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,121
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi
Well you missed it then. In post #81 you even quote me discussing it with the one who brought it up
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you are correct mea coupa.
Once you install it permanent on a vessel it becomes part of the vessel and then should confirm with " best practice " recommendations for said install.
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30-01-2020, 08:59
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#92
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cruiser
Join Date: May 2011
Boat: Hitchhiker, Catamaran, 40'
Posts: 1,827
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
Quote:
The fact is 30mA will almost certainly save you
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Then why (when I google electric shock drowning milliamps) does everyone say that 10-20 milliamps can paralyze a person enough that they can't swim and then drown?
Quote:
If the tank is bonded, as soon as the wire chafes to it, the breaker trips
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I don't think that this is true, I think that as the insulation starts to chafe you will get partial and intermittent shorts that are not enough to trip a breaker but could still cause fire, shocks, electrocution, or electric shock drowning. Some residential codes require arc fault breakers which can supposedly sense an intermittent fault but I have never heard of these for boats. RCDs would prevent all of this. If all boats were required to have RCDs on their main power entrance, lower threshold RCDs on all branch circuits as well as the dock having RCD protection, we would have a triple safeguard against an RCD failure. Then can we eliminate the connection between the shore power ground and the boats bonding system? (I know you will say no, and that the earth/bonding connection is the "holy grail" of AYBC and other institutions) but if given a choice between if all boats should have RCD devices or all boats should have bonding systems (in good condition) that is connected to shore power ground, I think that you would have to choose the RCD. The fact is that probably most boats bonding systems are in bad repair and few boat owners do anything about it because it consists of a lot of dissimilar metal connection, a lot of which are in the bilge and they will always corrode very quickly. On the other hand if a boat owner has a problem with an RCD device or his boat is tripping one he will have to do something about it (or have no power).
In any case, the topics surrounding these issues deserves thier own thread (or maybe not, it might just confuse people) and welcome to the forum Steve DAntonio, I am sure that everyone here has read some of your articles at one time or another and I know that you are not in a position to state anything contrary to the established procedure (AYBC) concerning safety on docks and boats. I am not sure of your motive for joining this forum but hope that you will stick around and help us debate these issues. And thanks for agreeing with me that GFCIs can be a simple affordable and even DIY upgrade to a boats AC electrical system.
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31-01-2020, 05:36
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#93
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Virginia
Posts: 105
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbs Up
Then why (when I google electric shock drowning milliamps) does everyone say that 10-20 milliamps can paralyze a person enough that they can't swim and then drown?
I don't think that this is true, I think that as the insulation starts to chafe you will get partial and intermittent shorts that are not enough to trip a breaker but could still cause fire, shocks, electrocution, or electric shock drowning. Some residential codes require arc fault breakers which can supposedly sense an intermittent fault but I have never heard of these for boats. RCDs would prevent all of this. If all boats were required to have RCDs on their main power entrance, lower threshold RCDs on all branch circuits as well as the dock having RCD protection, we would have a triple safeguard against an RCD failure. Then can we eliminate the connection between the shore power ground and the boats bonding system? (I know you will say no, and that the earth/bonding connection is the "holy grail" of AYBC and other institutions) but if given a choice between if all boats should have RCD devices or all boats should have bonding systems (in good condition) that is connected to shore power ground, I think that you would have to choose the RCD. The fact is that probably most boats bonding systems are in bad repair and few boat owners do anything about it because it consists of a lot of dissimilar metal connection, a lot of which are in the bilge and they will always corrode very quickly. On the other hand if a boat owner has a problem with an RCD device or his boat is tripping one he will have to do something about it (or have no power).
In any case, the topics surrounding these issues deserves thier own thread (or maybe not, it might just confuse people) and welcome to the forum Steve DAntonio, I am sure that everyone here has read some of your articles at one time or another and I know that you are not in a position to state anything contrary to the established procedure (AYBC) concerning safety on docks and boats. I am not sure of your motive for joining this forum but hope that you will stick around and help us debate these issues. And thanks for agreeing with me that GFCIs can be a simple affordable and even DIY upgrade to a boats AC electrical system.
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"Then why (when I google electric shock drowning milliamps) does everyone say that 10-20 milliamps can paralyze a person enough that they can't swim and then drown?"
That is the threshold for the current that the person in the water encounters, not the current leaving the source of the fault, it begins to spread out from the source as it travels away. It spreads out less in fresh water which is why virtually all ESD's occur in FW.
"RCDs would prevent all of this. If all boats were required to have RCDs on their main power entrance, lower threshold RCDs on all branch circuits as well as the dock having RCD protection, we would have a triple safeguard against an RCD failure."
We do, well at least ABYC does, with the mandate for ELCIs on inlets (with some exceptions) and GFCIs' on high risk branch circuits.
"Then can we eliminate the connection between the shore power ground and the boats bonding system? (I know you will say no, and that the earth/bonding connection is the "holy grail" of AYBC and other institutions)"
In theory this may work but you would then be putting all your eggs in the single RCD/ELCI basket, which is risky.
"I am not sure of your motive for joining this forum but hope that you will stick around and help us debate these issues. And thanks for agreeing with me that GFCIs can be a simple affordable and even DIY upgrade to a boats AC electrical system."
My motive? You've made it sound as if I have a sinister plan;-) Seriously, no motive other than when I have some down time, and am not traveling, I enjoy sharing my experience and debating worthy subjects on forums like this one, and will do so as long as the discourse remains civil and professional.
"...welcome to the forum Steve DAntonio, I am sure that everyone here has read some of your articles at one time or another and I know that you are not in a position to state anything contrary to the established procedure (AYBC) concerning safety on docks and boats."
Thank you. Rest assured, if I disagree with an ABYC Standard I'll say so, I'm not bound to agree, and in fact I am frequently a thorn in their side. I don't practice knee-jerk, 'you must do this because the standards say so' consulting. Contrary to the opinions of some here, most ABYC Standards, while not perfect, make good sense, they have no ulterior nefarious motive to drive up the cost of boat ownership or support insurance companies, as I noted in an earlier post they are not written by bureaucrats, they are rooted in technical fact, using the practical experience of committee members, they make boats safer and more reliable. I literal utilize them in one form or another every day. Here are two, of many, examples wherein I disagree, ABYC Standards say batteries, once installed, can move up to an inch, and permanent fuel tanks, once installed, can move up to a quarter inch. I think both of those make little sense, my boat building protocol calls for complete immobilization in both cases.
__________________
Steve D'Antonio
Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting, Inc.
ABYC Certified Master Technician
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31-01-2020, 08:46
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#94
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cruiser
Join Date: May 2011
Boat: Hitchhiker, Catamaran, 40'
Posts: 1,827
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
Quote:
My motive? You've made it sound as if I have a sinister plan
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The reason I brought this up is that you link to numerous articles that you have written and thought you may be trying to boost your "hits". I don't have a problem with it, I just wonder if you should change your membership status to "marine service provider". But back to the topic: Is it safer to ground the generator output on a portable or leave it floating? (I would like to hear more arguments for or against) Which brings up a related issue that I have trouble grasping: on a permanently installed generator or inverter (hardwired) there is an automatic transfer relay (switch). These transfer switches break the neutral to ground connection when not in use and automatically connect the neutral and ground when they are in use right? Can't this switch fail and leave the neutral to ground connected when it is not supposed to be? How would one know? And what is the failure rate? And what exactly are the dangers of having these two connected on the boat while using shore power?
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31-01-2020, 10:32
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#95
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,121
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbs Up
The reason I brought this up is that you link to numerous articles that you have written and thought you may be trying to boost your "hits". I don't have a problem with it, I just wonder if you should change your membership status to "marine service provider". But back to the topic: Is it safer to ground the generator output on a portable or leave it floating? (I would like to hear more arguments for or against) Which brings up a related issue that I have trouble grasping: on a permanently installed generator or inverter (hardwired) there is an automatic transfer relay (switch). These transfer switches break the neutral to ground connection when not in use and automatically connect the neutral and ground when they are in use right? Can't this switch fail and leave the neutral to ground connected when it is not supposed to be? How would one know? And what is the failure rate? And what exactly are the dangers of having these two connected on the boat while using shore power?
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Actually due to him listing his marine consultant firm in his sig line no he doesnt need to be listed as a service provider .
However with his postings on here one would think he would spring for the 20 bucks to be a forum supporter. Afterall his posts are a form of advertisement for his company.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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31-01-2020, 10:55
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#96
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Commercial Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Boat: Gulfstar Long Range Trawler; 53'; BearBoat
Posts: 1,525
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
@m0ggy #70:
Quote:
In the UK neutral and earth are connected at the main cable inlet not at the generator
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This is not entirely correct. The governing European document is ISO 13297 Small craft — Electrical systems—Alternating current installations and it states:
4.9 The neutral conductor shall be grounded (earthed) only at the source of power, i.e. at the onboard generator, the secondary of the isolation or polarization transformer, the shore power connection or inverter.
The shore power neutral shall be grounded (earthed) through the shore power cable and shall not be grounded (earthed) on board the craft or:
a) for systems using an isolation transformer or polarization transformer, both the generator or inverter neutral and the transformer secondary neutrals may be grounded at the a.c. main grounding bus instead of at the generator, inverter, or transformer secondaries;
b) for systems using an isolation transformer or polarization transformer, or no shore power provision, both the generator or inverter neutral and the transformer secondary neutrals may be ungrounded provided double-pole protection and switching is installed.
__________________
Charlie Johnson
ABYC Master Technician
JTB Marine Corporation
"The Devil is in the details and so is salvation."
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31-01-2020, 11:37
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#97
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,121
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
7 pages and the question/ issue was addressed and options to fix were posted within the first 10 posts on the first page .
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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31-01-2020, 11:44
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#98
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Commercial Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Boat: Gulfstar Long Range Trawler; 53'; BearBoat
Posts: 1,525
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
@newhaul #97: Like you have never seen this phenomenon before??????
__________________
Charlie Johnson
ABYC Master Technician
JTB Marine Corporation
"The Devil is in the details and so is salvation."
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31-01-2020, 12:14
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#99
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always in motion is the future
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 18,866
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieJ
This is not entirely correct. The governing European document is ISO 13297 Small craft — Electrical systems—Alternating current installations and it states:
4.9 [...]
b) for systems using an isolation transformer or polarization transformer, or no shore power provision, both the generator or inverter neutral and the transformer secondary neutrals may be ungrounded provided double-pole protection and switching is installed.
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And thus it turns out that my ungrounded favored solution, which many here have claimed is bound to kill y’all, is actually completely legal and within code! ... drops mike ...
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31-01-2020, 12:26
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#100
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,121
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieJ
@newhaul #97: Like you have never seen this phenomenon before??????
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nope never :-):-):-):-)
in all my time here it is normal operating procedure it seems
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31-01-2020, 12:33
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#101
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Commercial Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Boat: Gulfstar Long Range Trawler; 53'; BearBoat
Posts: 1,525
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
@s/v Jedi #99:
And as my tagline says: The devil is in the details and so is salvation.
__________________
Charlie Johnson
ABYC Master Technician
JTB Marine Corporation
"The Devil is in the details and so is salvation."
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31-01-2020, 17:38
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#102
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Virginia
Posts: 105
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbs Up
The reason I brought this up is that you link to numerous articles that you have written and thought you may be trying to boost your "hits". I don't have a problem with it, I just wonder if you should change your membership status to "marine service provider". But back to the topic: Is it safer to ground the generator output on a portable or leave it floating? (I would like to hear more arguments for or against) Which brings up a related issue that I have trouble grasping: on a permanently installed generator or inverter (hardwired) there is an automatic transfer relay (switch). These transfer switches break the neutral to ground connection when not in use and automatically connect the neutral and ground when they are in use right? Can't this switch fail and leave the neutral to ground connected when it is not supposed to be? How would one know? And what is the failure rate? And what exactly are the dangers of having these two connected on the boat while using shore power?
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The reason I brought this up is that you link to numerous articles that you have written and thought you may be trying to boost your "hits".
SDA: My inspiration for writing many of those columns and articles was primarily to save my fingers, I link to those articles in inspection reports I write, in Ask Steve columns, and in consulting correspondence when trying to convey information about a common subject or question, for boat buyers or builders. It saves me time and keyboard tapping (I'm a two-finger typist). 97% of my website is pure, unbiased information for boat owners, buyers and builders, the remaining 3% (that's literal, I've calculated it for photo model release purposes) describes the services I provide. So, do I want people to visit my site? Yes, and for the vast majority that do, it's a resource, for which I neither get nothing in return. Many of those articles are printed in boating magazines, I've simply posted them on my site to make it easier for me to access them, here's an example https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/w...9FINAL-PBB.pdf
I don't have a problem with it, I just wonder if you should change your membership status to "marine service provider".
SDA: I'm happy to do what ever the moderators believe I should do. My forum status doesn't really matter to me.
But back to the topic: Is it safer to ground the generator output on a portable or leave it floating? (I would like to hear more arguments for or against)
SDA: I think I've made my case already.
Which brings up a related issue that I have trouble grasping: on a permanently installed generator or inverter (hardwired) there is an automatic transfer relay (switch).
SDA: No, most but not all inverters have an internal switch that connects neutral and ground when the inverter is inverting. Generators have a permanent internal N to G bond, that is, or should be, activated via the shore power/gen transfer switch, when the genset's power is being provided to the vessel.
These transfer switches break the neutral to ground connection when not in use and automatically connect the neutral and ground when they are in use right?
SDA: In the case of the inverter, yes, for the gen it occurs as a result of the switching that occurs via the transfer switch.
Can't this switch fail and leave the neutral to ground connected when it is not supposed to be?
SDA: In the inverter, yes.
How would one know? And what is the failure rate? And what exactly are the dangers of having these two connected on the boat while using shore power?
SDA: You may have no immediate indication of a problem. I haven't seen many failures, a handful, however, I've seen countless inverters installed incorrectly, leading to dangerous water return paths. The danger of a N to G connection aboard is significant. I shared a link to an article that explains the N to G connection earlier, here it is again (I just updated this today) https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/n...d-demystified/ If current returns via the water, the result can be electric shock drowning, described here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/e...cis-explained/
__________________
Steve D'Antonio
Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting, Inc.
ABYC Certified Master Technician
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31-01-2020, 18:26
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#103
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Port Aransas, Texas
Boat: 2019 Seawind 1160 Lite
Posts: 2,126
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
Steve D'Antonio, I appreciate the info youve provided and the constructive feedback, whatever your status. THANKS
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01-02-2020, 05:12
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#104
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cruiser
Join Date: May 2011
Boat: Hitchhiker, Catamaran, 40'
Posts: 1,827
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
Quote:
However with his postings on here one would think he would spring for the 20 bucks to be a forum supporter. Afterall his posts are a form of advertisement for his company.
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Very funny Newhaul. You do know that this site operates as a for profit LLC right? Without our content there would be no forum. Now we get a guy like Steve on here, who's profession is to give marine related advice, and he is willing to offer his advice and answer questions here, for free and you want to heckle him into being a supporter?!!
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01-02-2020, 05:52
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#105
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: NZL - Currently Run Aground Ashore..
Boat: Sail & Power for over 35 years, experience cruising the Eastern Caribbean, Western Med, and more
Posts: 2,129
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Re: Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbs Up
Very funny Newhaul. You do know that this site operates as a for profit LLC right? Without our content there would be no forum.
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So the site should be paying us for our content? I'll happily wait for a cheque...
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