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Old 24-02-2020, 05:27   #31
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

the water heater is 220 v and output from Invertor is 120v. no, it can not happen unless water heater can run 120v (1600watts) . as a resistance heater that may work but then battery bank size must be addressed.


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Old 24-02-2020, 08:19   #32
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantas View Post
thank you everyone for answering to me. To make this post more clear - yes, I was talking about heating water for the shower, not for coffee regarding the inverter I think it is 230V as its European boat.

12V DC heating element is what I am looking at after the "no" answer from electrician. But if I am thinking correctly with 12V element it would take longer to heat water than via inverter. And how about once in marina connected to shore power?
Thanks for clearing those issues up.

Just run your existing 220/230v element via your existing inverter, keeping an eye on simultaneous loads and the state of charge of your batteries.

You have everything you need already (except maybe sufficient PV capacity, but charging your method of heating the water will not cure that).
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Old 24-02-2020, 14:26   #33
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

Your electrician is right. The inverter is only a 120 volt unit, but your water heater requires 240 volt. A quick check of the victron manual says 2 units can be connected to provide 120-0-120 volt configuration (240 volt or so called split phase).



Or, change your water heater element to 120 volt ( cheaper)
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Old 24-02-2020, 15:18   #34
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by boat driver View Post
the water heater is 220 v and output from Invertor is 120v. no, it can not happen unless water heater can run 120v (1600watts) . as a resistance heater that may work but then battery bank size must be addressed.


.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinScurr View Post
Your electrician is right. The inverter is only a 120 volt unit, but your water heater requires 240 volt. A quick check of the victron manual says 2 units can be connected to provide 120-0-120 volt configuration (240 volt or so called split phase).



Or, change your water heater element to 120 volt ( cheaper)

FYI. Victron Phoenix Compact 12VDC to 230VAC 3000VA Inverter.

Technical details

Input voltage range 9.5 - 17VDC
Output 230VAC +/- 2% 50Hz +/- 0.1% (adjustable to 240V 60Hz)
Continuous output power @ 25degC 3000VA 2500W
Peak power 6000W
Efficiency 93%
Zero-load power 15W, in search mode 4W
Programmable relay which can be set for general alarm, DC undervoltage or genset start signal function
Enclosure made from aluminium, blue RAL5012, IP21 rating
Dimensions 362 x 258 x 218 (HxWxD) in mm
Weight 18kg
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Old 28-02-2020, 08:17   #35
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

230 volts, 800 watts on a 240 volt, 3000 watt inverter is no problem. Only 800 watts may take a while if hot water tank is large. The only real issue is battery capacity and your ability to recharge afterwords. Give it a try, watch your batteries, and make an informed decision on future practices after a few trial runs. That's how I have always figured out what works and what doesn't. Formulas and figures can tell you what might happen before hand, and are a good idea up front to prevent initial damage to expensive bits of equipment, but the proof is always in the pudding. Your desired tasks are well within your equipments capabilities. Go for it.
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Old 28-02-2020, 08:36   #36
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

A simple heating element that is 240 and run on 120 will be 1/4 the wattage. I have run many water heaters this way on my boats and rv’s. Usually I did this to keep the generator (portable inverter type) running at idle or to keep total ac loads lower for less than ideal shore power.
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Old 28-02-2020, 08:40   #37
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

Thank you everyone for your advice. I asked my electrician to run this test on a boat and turns out everything works fine. I will update you all on power consumption with some real numbers once I will start cruising. For now, electrician will do a wiring so I will have this option to play with.
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Old 28-02-2020, 08:59   #38
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

If we are talking about heating water for showers. I've been using this method for over 50 years on the four boats I've owned - a 5 gallon solar shower "bag" (less than $10 at WalMart or Defender). Don't fill it so there is both room for the heated water to expand as well as to add cooler water as needed - the sucker tends to get very hot after just a couple of hours laying on deck in the sun. Just hoist the bag up on a spare halyard and enjoy a nice hot shower at the end of the day. It has the added benefit of keeping the interior of the boat much dryer!!! Save those amps for more important things, like running the blender to make Bushwackers!!!
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Old 28-02-2020, 10:57   #39
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

I get a lot of use from solar showers.

I like the Stearns 4 gallon bag best, it has a large screw cap which will not easily cross thread, nor leak, and seems sturdier than other brands.

I recommend not using the hollow plastic tube for the handle but get a 3/4 inch oak dowel instead. The tube will bend and cause the bag to rip on the edges when hung.

Knowing where the weak points are, I re enforce them with fiberglass soaked in 'Amazing goop' It does not have to fully saturate to be effective, but bond strength is important, meaning mechanical tooth and degreasing are considerations.

'Summershower' brand makes 3 and 5 gallon versions. I liked the 5 gallon one, never tried the 3, but like the Stearns 4 gallon one best of all that I've tried

Get an extension for the nozzle. I like them close to 4 foot, and thay come with barely 15 inches. These solar showers are in the 25 to 30$ range. All lesser models I have tried have been a complete waste of money and time.

They need a screw cap or will leak if not hung whilst heating.

I've had one cheapo with an easily cross threaded cap which would leak if overtightened, or undertightened and the goldilocks zone was difficult to achieve when new and impossible later.

I use 12v seat heaters, 25 to 45 watts below these bags to warm them towards that ideal 112.5F. They still consume about 35 amp hours of battery to get 4 to 5 gallons of 65f water to 112.5f, but much depends on the insulation used above and below, and it takes ~14 hours.

Keeping the already hot bag hot, uses much less electricity, so I will often take it from the sun mid to late afternoon and put it on the heating pad for a late evening hot shower.

The sun can heat the water much faster for free, and I have used both the sun and the 12v heating pads at the same time.
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Old 28-02-2020, 11:23   #40
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

Depending on the brand, an inverter will constantly supply somewhere between 60% and 90% of its rated load. 800W from a Victron 3000W will be no problem, as long as you have enough battery capacity behind it. 800W from 12V batteries will require about 70 - 75A (half that on 24V). Depending on how MUCH water you want to heat, that could take several hours.
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Old 28-02-2020, 14:28   #41
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

You can buy a 12Volt water heater element off of Ebay for less than $30.
The highest watts I see is 600 watts. I bought a little 150 Watt one to experiment with. I plan on seeing if I can use excess solar in the afternoon to warm enough water to do evening dishes.
It appears to have the same threads as any US electric water heater element that
I have replaced, but haven’t tried since I didn’t want to take apart my home water heater.
I’m not smart enough to recommend but want you to know they exist.
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Old 28-02-2020, 15:37   #42
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
...
To do that with a battery bank and inverter would take a little over 100 AH from a 12V bank to do it, if you have that much excess Solar or wind capacity, then do so.
I’ve never met anyone that did though.
...
We should meet.

My boat came with an inverter/charger combo Xantrex RV2012GS for those that care.

It's rated at 94% peak efficiency which should be close with this type of load.
From the manual "Resistive Loads: These are the loads that the inverter finds the simplest and most efficient to drive".

For those still paying attention, it's a modified sine wave inverter so YMMV.

I have found that it takes almost exactly 100 amp hours @ 12v nominal to heat my 6 gallon water tank from ambient (approx 80F to the cutoff temp approx 120F). I do it slowly drawing 30 amps and it takes more than 3 hours). I flip on the breaker when the battery bank is near full or sooner if I think it will remain a sunny day.

I had to do a touch of rewiring to add the water heater to the inverter bus as it wasn't setup that way from the factory.


Now for the OP:

A 220v rated heating element rated for 800 watts being fed 120 vac will draw 200 watts and 1/4 the amps. Of course it will take four times longer to heat.

How do I know this, as I'm not an electrician? First I read a bunch of stuff online. Second I tested it. My original heating element was rated at 1500 watts @ 120vac input. I swapped in a 230vac rated 1500 watt element and it now draws 375 watts (approx).

Maybe find a larger heating element that would be enough when running 120v and still not be too much when being fed 230v.

Obviously don't feed it both voltages at the same time.

Be smart, don't burn down your boat.
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Old 28-02-2020, 20:06   #43
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

Did the OP and others in this thread not clearly indicate that it is a 230V inverter? Why does 120V keep coming up?
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Old 28-02-2020, 20:37   #44
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

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Originally Posted by Boater Brad View Post
Did the OP and others in this thread not clearly indicate that it is a 230V inverter? Why does 120V keep coming up?

Literacy and comprehension problems perhaps???
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Old 29-02-2020, 10:00   #45
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Re: Heating water in silence (via inverter)

I found that running my engines for about 20 minutes was giving me very hot water using the heat exchanger, I also top the charge of my lithium batteries and run my air 12v 7000 BTU air conditioning before going to bed to dry my cabin, my cook top is also 12v induction, the Microwave also 12v..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantas View Post
Hello,

Before posting I found quite a few posts about running water heaters from the inverter and there are a lot of different opinions about this. So I asked electrician in the boat yard (where I am refiting my first boat) can I run my Sigmar SM40 (220V - 800W) water heater from the Victron Phoenix 12/3000w inverter and he said no and that I need to add one more Victron inverter and connect them both. Can someone explain me why 800W heater cannot be run on 3000W inverter? I will have 1050W solar and 1300Ah gel battery bank. As you may understood already I do not have background in electric stuff.

Please do not turn this discussion in "run your engines or generator - it is more efficient" - my goal is to have morning coffee in silent anchorage while waiting for shower to warm up thanks
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