Fischer Panda Genset - starter not turning, fuel pump clicking

[MondayNever]

Hey all, I've got an early 2000s era 6kw 50hz Fischer Panda genset that is not starting. It had been working until recently. I haven't fired it up in several weeks and now it's not turning over and firing up. I had noticed the last time I started it that it took several attempts of 5+ seconds of holding the start button to get it to go. My initial impulse is that the starter is shot, but I'd like to get a second opinion before I order a new part.



Relevant info:

• Remote panel lights up and control button works
• Depressing start button causes fuel pump (I think) to make a rapid clicking noise
• Starter does not engage/start turning/make any kind of noise
• Have tried tapping the starter while pressing the start button in case of sticky solenoid
• I can turn the engine over by hand, so it's not seized
• 12.2v at dedicated starter battery (a little low) and same reading at the (+) terminal on the starter with (-) lead of multimeter grounded against the block. This voltage is present with starter button both on/off, which doesn't really make sense to me as I would think that would mean it would always be trying to spin, but I also don't really have any idea how a starter/solenoid function.
• Tried jumping off a different battery that was at 12.7v just in case. No difference.

Questions:
- Since the fuel pump click, does that rule out it being an issue with the electrical supply? e.g. blown fuse (haven't tracked the location down yet), bad ground, etc?

- Is there any way to test whether a starter is bad and needs to be replaced beyond what I have done?


Thanks!

[coopec43]

There's nothing difficult about a starter/solenoid system. (Even I understand it and I worked behind a desk all my life)

Maybe you should look at this article for a start?

Starter motor, starting system: how it works, problems, testing

https://www.samarins.com/glossary/starter.html

[Sailmonkey]

You should be able to use a screwdriver or a length of wire to bypass the control system and simple make the starter engage. This will verify if the starter/solenoid are good or bad and allow you to work in the correct direction.

[tkeithlu]

If you sit beside the starter while the starter switch is pressed, do you really not even hear a clunk or a buzzing noise from the starter solenoid?

Does 12v+ get to the starter solenoid positive terminal when you press the starter button?

With no noise at all from the starter, that's the first place to look. The first, simplist, and cheapest problem is that the electrical connections are really bad, such that you are not getting enough current through to even throw the solenoid (which causes the Bendix gear to engage the star gear teeth on the flywheel). Trace all your connections, sanding and tightening as you go.

Then, is there a relay in the circuit? That's not likely, but let's eliminate the possibility.

Does the battery voltage drop (say to 10v or so) when you press the starter button? If not, the current is not making it to the engine block, and there's an opening somewhere in the circuit.

With the cables off, do you get continuity (but a few ohms) from the positive terminal on the starter solenoid to the block? You could have a broken winding in the solenoid, but your history of the situation getting worse gradually doesn't match that.

Starter solenoids use a lot of amps themselves, and connect that honkin' big cable from your battery to the starter motor. If it was getting through, I'd expect that you would hear something.

Good luck chasing it down. Not hearing anything is actually good news. It makes the starter being bad less likely, and a bad connection more likely.

[sailingchiro]

Start wiggling wires. You will most likely make a better connection at some but will definitely find the loose wire that has carboned and is limiting current. I would bet on a bad connection at battery, starter switch, starter, solenoid, or fuse. Make sure battery is able to start a diesel engine. Diesel engines need quite of bit of battery to start. Capacity test your battery as well.

[Symphony]

I had a Yanmar that exhibited the same symptoms intermittently. when I took the solenoid off to see if it worked I discovered that the main connection to the starter, which was on the backside of the starter and could not be seen otherwise, was completely loose but sometimes it would make contact enough to start the engine.

Easiest engine fix in my life.

[waterman46]

From your description, the solenoid is not working due to an open circuit internally.

You stated you already got 12V at the solenoid when you push the start button, right? But you don't hear any click from the solenoid.

If voltage at solenoid is within a couple tenths or so, as voltage at the battery terminal when you press the start button, then your wiring is OK and your solenoid is open.

Not familiar with that starter and solenoid, but see if you can replace just the solenoid. Hope it is reasonably accessible. Often have to remove entire starter motor to replace solenoid.

[duncan_ellison]

@MondayNever Your problem is one of the relays inside the sound cover. 100%. Seen this at least 5 times before on these FP PMS6000 units. For some reason they just pack up and stop working. They supply the power to the starter circuit when commanded by the panel and this is the exact failure mode.

Not at the boat at the moment so can't tell you exactly which one, but I think one of the ones to the right of the line of 5 or 6 relays.

Don't bother with an FP replacement, it will just fail again. They should be all the same type. Take one to your local NAPA store (or equivalent auto parts place if not in the US) and they should be able to match it. Get 2 or three, and keep a spare or two on the boat, they only cost a few $ each.

Let us know how it goes.

[MondayNever]

Thanks for the input, everyone. Seems like the first order of business is testing all aspects of the connection to the solenoid.

[MondayNever]

Originally Posted by duncan_ellison

@MondayNever Your problem is one of the relays inside the sound cover. 100%. Seen this at least 5 times before on these FP PMS6000 units. For some reason they just pack up and stop working. They supply the power to the starter circuit when commanded by the panel and this is the exact failure mode.

Not at the boat at the moment so can't tell you exactly which one, but I think one of the ones to the right of the line of 5 or 6 relays.

Don't bother with an FP replacement, it will just fail again. They should be all the same type. Take one to your local NAPA store (or equivalent auto parts place if not in the US) and they should be able to match it. Get 2 or three, and keep a spare or two on the boat, they only cost a few $ each.

Let us know how it goes.

Wrote my last reply before seeing this. Sounds like a really solid lead with which to start investigating. Thank you!

[jhagg]

Originally Posted by duncan_ellison

@MondayNever Your problem is one of the relays inside the sound cover. 100%. Seen this at least 5 times before on these FP PMS6000 units. For some reason they just pack up and stop working. They supply the power to the starter circuit when commanded by the panel and this is the exact failure mode.

Not at the boat at the moment so can't tell you exactly which one, but I think one of the ones to the right of the line of 5 or 6 relays.

Don't bother with an FP replacement, it will just fail again. They should be all the same type. Take one to your local NAPA store (or equivalent auto parts place if not in the US) and they should be able to match it. Get 2 or three, and keep a spare or two on the boat, they only cost a few $ each.

Let us know how it goes.

Exactly, FP relays about $50, I bought 4 @ $5 each fro NAPA and my FP he set has been working now for over a year.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by duncan_ellison

@MondayNever Your problem is one of the relays inside the sound cover. 100%. Seen this at least 5 times before on these FP PMS6000 units. For some reason they just pack up and stop working. They supply the power to the starter circuit when commanded by the panel and this is the exact failure mode.

Not at the boat at the moment so can't tell you exactly which one, but I think one of the ones to the right of the line of 5 or 6 relays.

Don't bother with an FP replacement, it will just fail again. They should be all the same type. Take one to your local NAPA store (or equivalent auto parts place if not in the US) and they should be able to match it. Get 2 or three, and keep a spare or two on the boat, they only cost a few $ each.

Let us know how it goes.

OP says he has 12V *at* the solenoid when button is pushed. Seems like that should be enough to prove all the other parts of the starter circuit are working. No click, either solenoid is seized or electrically open circuit.



Had a seized solenoid earlier this year on my boat's Onan genset. That starter motor has an external arm that is moved by the solenoid to pull in the gear to the flywheel. I fixed the problem with a lot of elbowgrease and WD40. Manually moving that lever until it freed up.

[Dougtiff]

CHECK THE GROUND !

[Rivatar]

I have the same FP, beautiful when it runs, nightmare finding faults. I agree about the relays, regardless. Ut first try the emergency start button, located adjacent to and on the right of the relays, it turns the fuel pump on, but bypasses the control panel and all sensors. Might take a couple of goes, but it will be obvious whether it will eventually start.
There are many thin wires in a wiring loom running underneath the block, leading to sensors, only a few if which show up as lights on the control panel. Over time, with the heat of the engine, the casing on these very thin wires become brittle and the wire fails or randomly faults.
If the emergency start works, replace the entire wiring loom, don’t bother trying to diagnose which wire, sensor, you’ll go nuts.

[CORALSEA TRAMP]

12.2v and no load is FLAT --12,2V under load is filthy terminals--click click is solenoid dropping in and out due to low voltage-not fuel pump -battery first--alternative battery next--