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16-08-2020, 22:43
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#46
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,301
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo
Safe at a float voltage of 13.5, but not if near 14 volts or higher.
Batteries do not gas at 13.5 volts.
My preference with chargers that have the option is 2 stage charging if the boat is not used regularly though. This is a full charge and the charger then goes into a sleep mode until the voltage drops a bit. If the boat is a liveaboard with draws on an ongoing basis then 3 stage charging with float works.
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Without wanting to get into a discussion about all things charging, the OP should be made aware the manufacturer of his start battery (a Century MP780/N70ZM MF) clearly states a float voltage 13.2V to 13.5V is not recommended (for the reasons previously posted).
YMMV.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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16-08-2020, 22:46
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#47
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C.
Boat: Wauquiez Centurion 32
Posts: 2,874
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
Without wanting to get into a discussion about all things charging, the OP should be made aware the manufacturer of his start battery (a Century MP780/N70ZM MF) clearly states a float voltage 13.2V to 13.5V is not recommended (for the reasons previously posted).
YMMV.
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Seeing as how the majority of chargers have a float voltage that cannot be switched off it seems like a very bad battery to purchase.
I have not ever come across a battery with that stipulation.
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16-08-2020, 23:15
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#48
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Auckland, NZ
Boat: Compass 790 , 7.9 metres or 26 ft
Posts: 2,803
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Hey Wottie knew u'd chime in,
One thing I can guarantee is that I'd bet his battery would last longer at a 13.5v float voltage IF permanently connected to solar than 1 or 1.5 years as is his current situation.
I'm only posting frm experience not theoretical knowledge. See disclaimer in earlier post.
MUCH better to get rid of the parasitic drain tho
\You dont want the battery doing any work at all. If it discharges overnite & then the solar pumps it it up again its doing work no matter how little. That affects it's cycle life
I assume that battery is a calcium type ( perhaps wrongly )
In my experience they welcome substantially higher float charge volts but anything better than no float charge if he has a parasitic drain.
Again tho best to fix the faults.
Still think it's likely to be faulty alternator & battery but maybe the parasitic drain will be the smoking gun.
Yea I'm not too impressed by Century batts but still should last at least 5 years. Doubt they are made in USA or Aus. but I don't know
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16-08-2020, 23:24
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#49
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,301
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo
Seeing as how the majority of chargers have a float voltage that cannot be switched off it seems like a very bad battery to purchase.
I have not ever come across a battery with that stipulation.
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The battery in question is marketed towards the mass boating public rather than cruising sail boats i.e. they are primarily sold to trailer boats and weekend sailing warriors who don't care about charging regimes as long as the engine starts .
But these types of batteries do have a place and if used solely as a start battery and left in a charged condition after a weekend of boating, they do the job and you buy a new one every five plus years.
I agree it isn't the best choice if you have shore or solar charging.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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16-08-2020, 23:38
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#50
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C.
Boat: Wauquiez Centurion 32
Posts: 2,874
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Looking at the specs on the manufacturer's page I couldn't see anything relating to charging information.
Damn expensive though for a basic starting battery. Canadian vs Australian dollar is almost at par and we sell a comparable starting battery for 119 Cdn.
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17-08-2020, 00:04
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#51
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,151
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
A simple spst battery switch in the positive lead from the start battery would solve the parasitic load issue with certainty.
But failing to restore the used power prior to parking the boat is simply a bad idea, even without the parasite sucking away at the charge. And the voltage measurements mentioned are pretty meaningless, for they depend so greatly on battery state of charge and stage of life. Some means of measuring charge/discharge current is pretty basic info that should be available on any cruising boat... and accurate voltage measurement too, for that matter! Not expensive or complicated instruments, especially if they save replacing batteries every few minutes... or months!
My solution to these issues is simple: ALL charge sources go to the house bank. The start battery is charged via an Echo-Charge. The only load on the start battery is the starter and engine gauges. Little to go wrong, no input from the operator required, and the start battery is recharged immediately after the 1-2 AH are removed in the start process.
The Echo charger isn't very expensive, works well and has been reliable for some years now. I like it.
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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17-08-2020, 02:11
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#52
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,126
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate
...
My solution to these issues is simple: ALL charge sources go to the house bank. The start battery is charged via an Echo-Charge. The only load on the start battery is the starter and engine gauges. Little to go wrong, no input from the operator required, and the start battery is recharged immediately after the 1-2 AH are removed in the start process.
...
Jim
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Jim, your solution has merit, however, I have an example of where it would be a problem.
- My 675 AH T105 house bank is capable of accepting pretty high input currents. By morning I am down by 100 AH or more, ready for solar to do its thing.
- My new Beta 50 engine came with the standard 70 amp alternator.
- The user manual for my engine clearly states that charging below 1200 rpm risks damage and has a great big caution that you must not allow this to happen. (Page 23) I'm guessing if I do, I'll fry the alternator and they won't replace it.
So, if I were to hook my engine alternator directly to the house bank, I'd pretty much lose the ability to use low engine revs until the battery bank is recharged. My engine is used almost exclusively for maneuvering in and out of the pen, and I sure as heck don't want to do that at over 1200 rpm. (As it is, I have to clear the marina and fairway (4 knot limit, 0.85 nautical miles, 1200 rpm would have me doing around 5 knots) before I give it a bit of stick out in the gulf, otherwise Wotname will be after me with an engine commissioning guide book and a sharp screwdriver.)
I don't know how the various after market alternators cope with low revs, but it is a limitation for those of us with the standard Beta 50 or alternators that need higher rpm for cooling.
Anyway, I concede this is an odd case, but many boats live in a marinas, and it would be a shame to cook the alternator while warming the engine and gently squeezing out between all the shiny Bendies.
__________________
Refitting… again.
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17-08-2020, 02:34
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#53
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,301
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo
Looking at the specs on the manufacturer's page I couldn't see anything relating to charging information.
Damn expensive though for a basic starting battery. Canadian vs Australian dollar is almost at par and we sell a comparable starting battery for 119 Cdn.
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Welcome to Aussie pricing - you can buy better but you can't pay more . Mind you, Supercheap Auto isn't the cheapest outlet but by and large, stuff is expensive in Australia.
The charging info is in their technical support area.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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17-08-2020, 15:43
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2017
Location: On the boat
Boat: Northwind 50
Posts: 76
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Just a wild card here,....but what sort of engine do you have and how old is it? If it is an older Yanmar 4JH then the problem might not be the battery.
I have this engine and had a similar problem....the starter battery would start the engine after it had been on shore power but after a few hours sailing it would not. I assumed it was the battery and replaced it but this didn’t solve the problem. I then had in turn the alternator serviced; the starter motor serviced; the ignition switch replaced and finally replaced all the battery cables. Still didn’t solve the problem.
Finally someone told me that there was a historic known problem with the corrosion in the starter cables for this engine and it caused such a voltage drop that unless the battery was at absolutely full charge it wouldn’t work. However if instead of going to the starter motor the ignition switch went to a relay and the relay powered the starter motor there shouldn’t be the same voltage drop.
Simple cheap solution, I tried, it works.
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17-08-2020, 17:31
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#55
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,151
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow
Jim, your solution has merit, however, I have an example of where it would be a problem.
- My 675 AH T105 house bank is capable of accepting pretty high input currents. By morning I am down by 100 AH or more, ready for solar to do its thing.
- My new Beta 50 engine came with the standard 70 amp alternator.
- The user manual for my engine clearly states that charging below 1200 rpm risks damage and has a great big caution that you must not allow this to happen. (Page 23) I'm guessing if I do, I'll fry the alternator and they won't replace it.
So, if I were to hook my engine alternator directly to the house bank, I'd pretty much lose the ability to use low engine revs until the battery bank is recharged. My engine is used almost exclusively for maneuvering in and out of the pen, and I sure as heck don't want to do that at over 1200 rpm. (As it is, I have to clear the marina and fairway (4 knot limit, 0.85 nautical miles, 1200 rpm would have me doing around 5 knots) before I give it a bit of stick out in the gulf, otherwise Wotname will be after me with an engine commissioning guide book and a sharp screwdriver.)
I don't know how the various after market alternators cope with low revs, but it is a limitation for those of us with the standard Beta 50 or alternators that need higher rpm for cooling.
Anyway, I concede this is an odd case, but many boats live in a marinas, and it would be a shame to cook the alternator while warming the engine and gently squeezing out between all the shiny Bendies.
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Matt, I don't understand your objection. Use of t he Echocharger is a system to automatically charge the start battery after starting the engine. It doesn't affect the charging of the house bank at all.
I don't know what alternator you have, but the old Balmar 150 that I have doesn't put out much current at low revs and that seems to limit the heating problem.At idle speed (~850 rpm) it is near zero. I'm puzzled by Beta's concern.
I guess that I may be missing the point!
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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17-08-2020, 19:03
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#56
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,126
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate
Matt, I don't understand your objection. Use of t he Echocharger is a system to automatically charge the start battery after starting the engine. It doesn't affect the charging of the house bank at all.
I don't know what alternator you have, but the old Balmar 150 that I have doesn't put out much current at low revs and that seems to limit the heating problem.At idle speed (~850 rpm) it is near zero. I'm puzzled by Beta's concern.
I guess that I may be missing the point!
Jim
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It’s ok, I’ve heard that cold weather diminishes cognitive function. Or was it warm weather... or beer maybe...?
Whatever... the point is, in my case, if the alternator were connected directly to the house bank, I’d risk burning it out with my trip from the pen to open water as it tried to top up the depleted house bank without the required rpm.
I assume this problem does not apply to all alternators, but I think I’ve seen some mention of it before.
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Refitting… again.
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17-08-2020, 19:07
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#57
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,126
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Engine batterie dying too quickly
Incidentally, I have a 30 amp dc to dc charger I use in the opposite direction to the typical echo charger setup. I’ve wired mine so that it draws from the engine battery to charge the house bank. I can only be switched on if the ignition is switched on, and the 30 amp limit protects the alternator. This setup is only good for me because I have so much solar and never use the engine. If I wanted to get the full 70 amps from the engine I’d just grab the jumper leads.
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Refitting… again.
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17-08-2020, 22:44
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#58
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,151
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
While it is well known that temperatures below 20 C cause atrophy of the intellect, I'd hoped that infusions of antifreeze would provide protection. I guess that was not to be...
But I find your setup kinda weird, mate! Perhaps all that study has had some debilitating effect on your electrical system (personal, not nautical). Backwards DC-DC chargers and all that... sheesh!
I'm still confused by Beta's concern about low speed operation. Will your alternator really put out enough current at low rpm to cook it? I would have thought running at max output at cruising speed for long bulk charging times would be the killer.
I know that you have relatively high solar capacity, but if you really do come to stay in Tassie, the short days, low sun angles and frequent cloud cover in winter has reduced out solar output drastically, and we've gone from easily covering our normal daily usage to needing engine charging every damn day. Point being that having the means to utilize engine charging of the house bank directly from the alternator may be a requirement daily for y ou... maybe.
Oh, BTW, what sort of regulator is on your alternator? May be possible to mess with the charge profile with some adjustments to it.
Honestly, this is about the first negative thing I've heard about Beta engines, and it's a surprise to me.
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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18-08-2020, 00:59
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#59
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,126
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Maybe the 1200 rpm caution is a new thing.
Maybe people don’t actually read the manual.
Why the problem? Sodomy non sapiens. Possibly inadequate cooling below those revs?
Internal regulator, factory supplied. Not inclined to fiddle with it, given the warranty etc, and the current status of not needing engine charging.
However...
Point noted about solar in Tassie. Happy to rewire if I face that problem, but TBH, I don’t relish the though of running a new AU$15k engine to charge the batteries. If it gets to that, and the wind gen and solar won’t cut the mustard, I think I’d be inclined to go down the Honda EU2000 path and manage the associated risks. Or add more solar. I could probably squeeze in another 400 watts.
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Refitting… again.
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18-08-2020, 05:40
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#60
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 2,060
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Re: Engine batterie dying too quickly
Chris from Balmar here. If you measure the temp of an alternator while it is attempting to provide full output, you will typically find the hottest point shomewhere above idle, where the alternator is able to give some decent output, but the fans are not turning fast enough for optimal cooling. If is often around the 1800 alternator rpm mark, but is different for every model and the installation has an effect too.
Chris
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