Dual AC Voltage Boat

[rspott]

I am the new owner of a non-US spec'd boat wired for 220VAC.

Our use will be mostly in the US until I can convince the woman that drives to hop over one of these ponds.

To keep the wife happy, and enable me to plug into 110/60-Hz or 220/50-Hz I have a crazy scheme in drawn form.

Does this look too crazy? I look forward to pointing, laughing, personal insults and (hopefully) advice.

[EngNate]

A crazy scheme is not what you should be wanting. How about some info about the boat and how it is currently equipped, and what you want to be able to run on US power. Is there a drawing of the current AC distribution system you can scan & post? And what are these Quattro units, inverter/chargers or?

[rspott]

Originally Posted by EngNate

A crazy scheme is not what you should be wanting. How about some info about the boat and how it is currently equipped, and what you want to be able to run on US power. Is there a drawing of the current AC distribution system you can scan & post? And what are these Quattro units, inverter/chargers or?

I think I used the word crazy to be self-deprecating.

The current AC installation is everything on the 220 side and DC bus.

I am adding the 120 side of things to the existing system, and moving outlets from 220 -> 120VAC. (appropriate wire sizes are in place for higher amperage rates)

The Quattro units are inverter chargers.

The 220 side is dual input auto-switching between shore and genset.

The 120 side is single input, shore power only and mis-labeled as a Quattro unit.

[ttex]

Might think about powering the outlets first, then supply the inverter. Is there a reason to wire from the inverter to the outlets?

[rspott]

Originally Posted by ttex

Might think about powering the outlets first, then supply the inverter. Is there a reason to wire from the inverter to the outlets?

Right. The inverter converts 12VDC to 120VAC.

I wasn’t looking for an order of operations, I was looking at the overall feasibility of the design.

Any other thoughts on feasibility? Or things I might be missing?

[Pizzazz]

If the 110V side is direct to shore power, you still need to put a charger there that can provide enough DC current to power the 220V inverter. So you need to calculate how much current it will need and it may be significant. HVAC should be OK, the Icemaker as well. If you have heating elements, hot water or boat you might want to connect these to the 110V side permanently as they draw a lot of power.

If I were doing this on my boat, I would leave one side of the outlets on 220V, the other side on 110V, connect them respectively so that you do not have to change the pugs on small devices (telephone chargers, etc.). I will then switch high power devices to 110V (just change the heating element on the water heater). I will leave the HVAC at 220V but tell us about the total power, it may be a problem. Keep in mind that large 12V chargers are massive and many inverter/chargers supply different max current for charging and inverting. My Heart Interface 1,500W can supply up to 200A DC current when pressed but charges up to 75A only. So if I were to invert that to 220V, it would be max 750W.

[CharlieJ]

@rspott:
It would take a whole lot less equipment to install an autotransformer like this one from Victron: https://tinyurl.com/y63or7we

L1 and N (L2) from genset and L1 and L2 from 50A/250VAC USA power yields nominal 12kVA to the boat. Secondary of AT provides two legs of 120VAC and 240VAC.

[Dennis.G]

I had a transformer and separate 120 and 220 volt input plugs (and cables). But that was for a boat wired for 120 VAC. If you have a 220 volt boat and want to use 120 volt equipment on board remember that the 220 volt wiring will be undersized and not able to handle the increased current for 120 branch circuits. Will need separate wired 120 VAC panel and branch circuits to outlets, and maybe a transformer to power your 220 main panel.
However you do it make sure you clearly label all the wiring and use appropriate wiring color codes and end up with a wiring schematic.

[EngNate]

No info is given as to your ultimate objective, but it sounds like the need to run on N American power is a secondary purpose and you're not looking to re configure the boat for worldwide power with the full capacity as equipped now. So the right side of your drawing is what you're going to add and the left side is what is already there. The two services are each a stand-alone system. That is the most sensible thing to do, assuming you've considered and can do without all of the originally installed 220V/50Hz equipment on shore power. Of course, install or have installed in accordance with recommended practices. Are you going to get 120V appliances that you will want to use away from the dock? If not, why spend on an inverter/charger, just use a charger, and get one that is worldwide compatible. I've seen great performance and reliability for years from the Pro Mariner Pro Nautic series (and I have no interest in the plug).

[rspott]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@rspott:
It would take a whole lot less equipment to install an autotransformer like this one from Victron: https://tinyurl.com/y63or7we

L1 and N (L2) from genset and L1 and L2 from 50A/250VAC USA power yields nominal 12kVA to the boat. Secondary of AT provides two legs of 120VAC and 240VAC.

Thanks Charlie,

I think the graphic here might be what I end up doing. 2 auto-transformers Isolation transformers... unless a single larger auto-transformer does the things I need.

The large load items will remain 230 with only the convenience outlets converted to 110 via an inverter (not shown here) running from the batteries. With a year of review of my victron logs from my last boat we averaged ~500W of consumption so I don't see having to directly tie 110VAC directly to shore.

This is a new-to-me and darn near stock '15 Lagoon 450. I have tore apart the electrical diagram a bit to just focus in on the shore power bits.

[rspott]

Originally Posted by Dennis.G

I had a transformer and separate 120 and 220 volt input plugs (and cables). But that was for a boat wired for 120 VAC. If you have a 220 volt boat and want to use 120 volt equipment on board remember that the 220 volt wiring will be undersized and not able to handle the increased current for 120 branch circuits. Will need separate wired 120 VAC panel and branch circuits to outlets, and maybe a transformer to power your 220 main panel.
However you do it make sure you clearly label all the wiring and use appropriate wiring color codes and end up with a wiring schematic.

Dennis

I plan on leaving the 220 systems in place as there is a 220 genset supporting them when offshore.

I plan on using an inverter off the DC bus for the 110VAC convenience outlets onboard. I have about a year of historical logs from my last boat showing an average consumption of ~500W of 110VAC power.

The wiring for the existing, and soon to be converted 220VAC convenience outlets is 14AWG. This should be sufficient for 20*.8Amps of 110CAC power with proper breakers.

[rspott]

Originally Posted by EngNate

No info is given as to your ultimate objective, but it sounds like the need to run on N American power is a secondary purpose and you're not looking to re configure the boat for worldwide power with the full capacity as equipped now. So the right side of your drawing is what you're going to add and the left side is what is already there. The two services are each a stand-alone system. That is the most sensible thing to do, assuming you've considered and can do without all of the originally installed 220V/50Hz equipment on shore power. Of course, install or have installed in accordance with recommended practices. Are you going to get 120V appliances that you will want to use away from the dock? If not, why spend on an inverter/charger, just use a charger, and get one that is worldwide compatible. I've seen great performance and reliability for years from the Pro Mariner Pro Nautic series (and I have no interest in the plug).

Thanks for the notes on the charger.

The end goal is to be able to plug into North American power systems (2 110VAC @ 30A plugs).

And, when the wife drives the boat to the rest of the world, be able to plug into 2 230VAC @ 15A plugs).

I would like to do the above with little change to the large 220VAC loads onboard:
Watermaker
AC Units
Dive Compressor
Microwave
Waterheater
Washer/Dryer
etc.

Since we are Norte-Americanos we have all sorts of things that use North American 120VAC power @ 60Hz. To supply power to these items I plan on converting the convenience outlets to 110VAC provided by an inverter powered by the DC Bus.

[smac999]

the auto transformer or iso transformer does not change freq.

note those are 2 different things and have 2 different purposes.

if you want 240v 60hz you will need both depending on brand. if you only want 230 50hz and 120v 60hz you will want the iso transformer.

it you look at a brand new lagoon cat. they have a 120v 60hz inverter, a 230v 50hz inverter. and two 100a chargers that can run off either.

so the AC panel has both 230v and 120v breakers. always getting the correct voltage / freq to the right aplicances and plugs. always from inverters. and the batteries get charged from any shore voltage from multi input chargers.

you would need custom shore cables though as the boat moves. vrs having 2 standard cords like your first pic. as there is only one shore plug

your first pic is not far off that . and it would work. but not standard.

the issue will be when one inverter is overpowering the charger of the other. which it will over say 1or2kw. which is where mulpitle chargers come into play.

there is also no way to feed dual shore plugs into a single inverter /charger. so I don't know what you plan is in first pic for the dual shore plugs (2x30a or 2x16a)

[rspott]

Originally Posted by smac999

the auto transformer or iso transformer does not change freq.

note those are 2 different things and have 2 different purposes.

1. if you want 240v 60hz you will need both depending on brand. if you only want 230 50hz and 120v 60hz you will want the iso transformer.

2. it you look at a brand new lagoon cat. they have a 120v 60hz inverter, a 230v 50hz inverter. and two 100a chargers that can run off either.

3. so the AC panel has both 230v and 120v breakers. always getting the correct voltage / freq to the right aplicances and plugs. always from inverters. and the batteries get charged from any shore voltage from multi input chargers.

4. you would need custom shore cables though as the boat moves. vrs having 2 standard cords like your first pic. as there is only one shore plug

5. your first pic is not far off that . and it would work. but not standard.

6. the issue will be when one inverter is overpowering the charger of the other. which it will over say 1or2kw. which is where mulpitle chargers come into play.

7. there is also no way to feed dual shore plugs into a single inverter /charger. so I don't know what you plan is in first pic for the dual shore plugs (2x30a or 2x16a)

smac,

I am not yet used to the quote system in cruisers forum so I numbered your statements above.

1. The input frequency is of no concern to me. I have not yet found a really affordable device that converts voltage _and_ frequency.

I looked at all of the large loads on the boat and they all appear to be capable of running at 60Hz except for the washer/dryer. I’ll probably run that from the inverter (230VAC/50Hz to keep it happy.)

2. If only I could afford a new, new Lagoon.... Oh well! I see the chargers support worldwide voltage/frequency and I’ll keep them in the loop or on the side to charge batteries.

I really liked my experience with the Victron gear and the wife and daughter really liked the CCGX devices that told them graphically what was going on with the power so I am pushed very hard toward all Victron gear for charging, inverting and, it looks like, isolation/voltage conversion.

Victron side stories:
One.
My 14YO daughter and another cruising kid were awake for 3 days straight on our former cat binge watching some TV show. Around 3AM one morning I hear them talking in the saloon;
My kid: “We should microwave popcorn!”
Visiting kid: “Are you sure? Do we need to turn on the honda? Do we you have enough battery?”
My kid (tapping CCGX): “Nah, we are good, we have enough battery.”

Two:
We left the boat in an anchorage somewhere in Mexico. I have a satcom system that uses 170W of 120VAC and if I left it on when the sun set it could drain batteries faster than normal.

We were in the theater, 45 minutes away from the bay and I had a “did I leave the oven/satcom on!” moment.

Opened my phone, looked at the Victron VRM website, remote controlled the device and shut off the inverter. Done and done!

The movie was OK.

3. This is correct. Convenience items plugged into wall sockets get 120VAC 60Hz from the inverter. Large loads, pre-installed by Lagoon, run at 230VAC 50/60Hz from the inverter/charger or from shore power or from the Lagoon installed generator.

Everything labeled enough to make anal retentive engineer smile and only faintly chuff.

4. I figure I’ll need to make adapters for the cables as we move about. Right now I am using two 30A smart-cables with US style plugs to plug into the pedestal. These cables should be more than adequate for higher voltages and their lower amperages.

5. What would you change to make it more ‘standard’?

6. I don’t understand this statement. Can you say it in another way?

7. Dual 30A capable shore plugs. One will go into the AC units directly and the other will go into the inverter/charger as the boat is wired now. I would love to go 50A and a single cord but then I am into maybe crazy money for an isolation transformer for that size and pedestal power at the marinas I’ve been at down the Pacific coast of North America and now the East coast of the US.

[pacific_voyager]

I had the reverse situation which was a 120VAC boat destined to be in 230VAC Australia where I am now. I wanted to be able to run my old USA tools (now mostly replaced with battery-powered tools) and also be able to buy appliances overseas that required 230/50 hz, e.g. our sewing machine.

I started with a tranformer with a double-tap for 110 or 220 but ended up tossing it out. I did have both 120VAC/50hz and 230V/50hz Blue Seas Distribution panels already installed when I re-did the AC & DC panels. This helped with the final wiring. We have dedicated power points (sockets) around the boat for both 230VAC and 120VAC.

The best way to have a dual voltage vessel, IMO, is this:

1. Forget about inverter/chargers. They can be expensive, prone to failure, and make it difficult or impossible to have a separate load bus and charge bus. If you go to Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries you will want separate busses.
2. Run all AC loads through two inverters, one for 130V/60hz and the other for 230V/50hz. I prefer PSW (pure sine wave). This isolates your AC system from dodgy shore power and simplifies shore power wiring. Only the battery charger(s) connect directly to shore power.
3. Use a universal charger. This could beSterling or Pronautic (same thing) or another brand of universal (any voltage, any frequency) marine battery charger that gives 30 or 40 amps. Pronautic 12v 40A is currently available on eBay for $405. In 2017 bought this unit direct from ProMariner for US$280.
4. If you want 60 or 80 amps of charging power, buy TWO units. It's cheaper than a single large charger and gives you redundancy. I checked with ProMariner Tech Support. They confirm that you can parallel as many chargers as you wish.

Bob's your uncle!

Cheers,

Jeff
s/v Beatrix