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Old 24-03-2017, 14:35   #31
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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Originally Posted by Scot McPherson View Post
Do NOT top off your batteries in the AM as suggested however, that leaves absolutely nothing for your solar and wind to do. Get as much from the sun and wind as you can, then top off your batteries before you go to bed. This MAXIMIZES the amount of energy gained from solar and wind and MINIMIZES the amount of fuel you will need to burn.
Wrong. Getting a deeply depleted bank up to 80-85% takes a lot of amps but only a short runtime, perfect use case for fossil fuel.

Once you get familiar, you'll know how to tweak the runtime based on the weather or varying usage needs, leave the rest to the renewable sources.

The last 15-20% - and very important to get to 100% for bank longevity - takes 3-8 times as long, but very low current. Perfect for the renewables.

Obviously if lots of space or low usage needs, best would be solar alone. But if a hybrid system is needed, burn the fuel first.
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Old 24-03-2017, 14:40   #32
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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Originally Posted by Scot McPherson View Post
most alternators have regulators built right in.
And they usually are very "bad" ones, wrt charging depleted deep-cycle banks as quickly as possible at low rpm without burning out the alt.

Many don't even charge a little starter all that well.
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Old 24-03-2017, 14:45   #33
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
However, sometimes you need as much power as you can get, up to 25% of C, to stuff power into your batts after discharging them deeply
And some quality types are fine with .5C or more, good LFP banks can safely go much higher. Great for minimizing charge times when needed, but you need the gear to feed the amps
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Old 24-03-2017, 15:00   #34
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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Originally Posted by Scot McPherson View Post
Do NOT top off your batteries in the AM as suggested however, that leaves absolutely nothing for your solar and wind to do. Get as much from the sun and wind as you can, then top off your batteries before you go to bed. This MAXIMIZES the amount of energy gained from solar and wind and MINIMIZES the amount of fuel you will need to burn.
Sorry, that is a 100% wrong recommendation with Lead Acid batteries

It's not a case of "top off you batteries in the AM". You can't do that unless you are using expensive Lithium batteries.

With LA, it takes a long time to replenish a battery bank and they can only accept the full output from an alternator/generator when at a low state of charge (in "bulk mode"). As they get to a higher State of Charge (SOC), they accept less and less amperage in "absorption mod" until they eventually drop into "float mode", at near 100% SOC.

The optimum method is to use the alt/gennie for bulk mode charging to put Ah back into your batteries as fast you can when they are most depleted (i.e. first thing in the morning) and then let the lower Amperage available from solar continue the absorption stage throughout the day so that you end up with full batteries in the late afternoon.

Using alt/gennie in the afternoon MAXIMIZES the fuel you waste trying to put Ahs into a battery bank that should, at that stage be in absorption mode and MINIMIZES the amps you can actually use from your alternator/generator.
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Old 24-03-2017, 15:03   #35
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
And they usually are very "bad" ones, wrt charging depleted deep-cycle banks as quickly as possible at low rpm without burning out the alt.

Many don't even charge a little starter all that well.
I wouldn't say they are bad, but there is a huge difference between a standard alternator putting out 14v and one fitted with a smart voltage regulator at 14.8v.

The op, so the forum has recommended some form of smart voltage regulator, something to measure the state of charge of the batteries and lots of solar. That is probably going to be $500. However, with out doing this you are going to go through batteries in short order and spend hours running your engine without a load guessing how much charge they need.

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Old 24-03-2017, 15:09   #36
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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I wouldn't say they are bad, but there is a huge difference between a standard alternator putting out 14v and one fitted with a smart voltage regulator at 14.8v.
That's what I meant by bad, and why the quotes. Many also reduce Volts when hot rather than amps, or just let the diodes burn out.
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Old 24-03-2017, 15:16   #37
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

$400 is not much at all for a good robust HO alt, and the MC-614 VR, or the Sterlings can be that much again, then labor costs.

That's just the entry point for a good setup. Many spend that or more on their banks, and having them last 3-10 times longer pays off.

Not to mention the alt/VR lasting much longer.

If you really **need** to save money, IMO better to reduce your usage requirements, or shop eBay, rather than buy new stuff not up to the job.
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Old 24-03-2017, 16:25   #38
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Wrong. Getting a deeply depleted bank up to 80-85% takes a lot of amps but only a short runtime, perfect use case for fossil fuel.

Once you get familiar, you'll know how to tweak the runtime based on the weather or varying usage needs, leave the rest to the renewable sources.

The last 15-20% - and very important to get to 100% for bank longevity - takes 3-8 times as long, but very low current. Perfect for the renewables.

Obviously if lots of space or low usage needs, best would be solar alone. But if a hybrid system is needed, burn the fuel first.
Some truth to that for sure. It's the batteries that are the problem recharging, not the alternator or regulator. You can pound in 85-90 amps for a while but then the batteries wont take it well. All my cruising boats but one had nothing but a high output reg and alt. I like not having all that crap hanging all over the boat. One boat came with a 4 winds wind charger. It was helpful some times. A good compromise might be partial small solar and big alternator. Or a bimini with solar top. pound the amps in and let the solar do the rest in the day.
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Old 24-03-2017, 19:57   #39
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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I'm replacing the house bank on our P-34 with two group 31 FLA's. I have no high output alternator, but want to have enough battery capacity to run refrigeration around the clock. Should I be installing a smart regulator in order to keep the battery bank over 50% charged? If so, which models fit this application?
RSB, lots of good info in these posts, but perhaps one thing is missing: How are you looking to use you boat? Will you be away from the docks for extended periods of time, or mostly day /weekend trips with perhaps once a year longer excursions? Do you plan on long passages under the Iron Jib, or will you more likely be under sail with maybe a half hour of engine usage at a time? Is easy to pore money into the system, but perhaps is good to consider 1st is usage...

With that, another thing to perhaps consider, : If you do install Solar your alternator needs might change, and/or perhaps you can find room to upsize the battery bank. Once could envision a simple fixed voltage regulator (adjusted up), maybe even using a built-in regulator, combined with solar being the solution. But it really comes back to how you expect to use your boat, and then consider the exception cases to make sure nothing bad pops up.
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Old 25-03-2017, 01:29   #40
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scot McPherson View Post
. . . Do NOT top off your batteries in the AM as suggested however, that leaves absolutely nothing for your solar and wind to do. Get as much from the sun and wind as you can, then top off your batteries before you go to bed. This MAXIMIZES the amount of energy gained from solar and wind and MINIMIZES the amount of fuel you will need to burn.
As others have pointed out, this is not right. The reason for it is that charging with the brute force of a generator or large alternator on the main engine is efficient when the batts are in bulk. But dreadfully inefficient after that when the batteries can only accept a small current. Because during the absorption phase, the diesel engine has to run and run and run while only a little power is being taken.

The perfect partnership between fossil fuel and solar is bulk with fossil fuel, then absorption with solar.


We ran our previous boat on all solar with no generator and very little use of the alternator when we weren't motoring anyway. But it was a much smaller and simpler boat than our present boat. And she sailed like a pig so we didn't care about the windage of the solar panels. The present boat, on the contrary, has a 6.5kW diesel generator and no solar. She sails well and I wouldn't compromise that by sticking solar panels on her.

I sure miss the solar, though. Next boat will have solar panels built into the pilothouse roof. Or maybe not -- LiFePo batteries don't need the long finishing charges lead-acid has to have, so you don't really need solar if you have enough generating capacity.
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Old 25-03-2017, 01:35   #41
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
$400 is not much at all for a good robust HO alt, and the MC-614 VR, or the Sterlings can be that much again, then labor costs.

That's just the entry point for a good setup. Many spend that or more on their banks, and having them last 3-10 times longer pays off.

Not to mention the alt/VR lasting much longer.

If you really **need** to save money, IMO better to reduce your usage requirements, or shop eBay, rather than buy new stuff not up to the job.
Yes. The big cost, however, for a high output alternator, is the drive system -- adding a sheave to the crankshaft, idler pulleys, etc. And mounts if you make it a second alternator or change the case size.

The cheapest way to do it is to replace the standard alternator with a small-case high output alternator and add a good regulator. This is a lot of bang for the buck, hugely improving charge performance. But if budget allows, there's nothing like a large case school bus alternator. Even with mounts and drive system, it's still dirt cheap compared to a built-in diesel generator. Simple, reliable, cheap to repair or rebuild -- great items of gear. Moreover, if you are cruising in remote areas, any third-world auto electric shop can repair or rebuild it.
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Old 25-03-2017, 02:25   #42
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

Multiple sources are the go. I just added a Mark Grasser 100amp and one of his smart regulators, purchased through Rich.
480w of solar generally takes care of batteries. When the sun don't shine like it hasnt recently for weeks then the little Honda chucks in 40-50amps first up and then solar finishes then off.
Here's where the high output alternator comes into play. Sailed through the night last night, the boat sucks approx 12 amps per hour, by 3am batteries were getting down, this is when the 100amp alternator comes in. In reality the most I've seen going in is 70amps but that's more than enough. That's the only time I use the engine to recharge.
Last boat had a wind generator, not a real fan but would of been great the last 24hr.

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Old 25-03-2017, 05:32   #43
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Some truth to that for sure. It's the batteries that are the problem recharging, not the alternator or regulator. You can pound in 85-90 amps for a while but then the batteries wont take it well. All my cruising boats but one had nothing but a high output reg and alt. I like not having all that crap hanging all over the boat. One boat came with a 4 winds wind charger. It was helpful some times. A good compromise might be partial small solar and big alternator. Or a bimini with solar top. pound the amps in and let the solar do the rest in the day.
The charge source simply makes Amps **available**, the bank's SoC and chemistry's acceptance rate will determine the current **pulled** by the batteries.

There is no "pounding".
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Old 25-03-2017, 05:37   #44
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
you don't really need solar if you have enough generating capacity.
Assuming you're regularly burning fossil fuel anyway, for other reasons.

Running motors **just** to charge the bank, I would put in as much solar as possible, even with a LFP bank.
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Old 25-03-2017, 16:23   #45
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

My concern is with the statement "this is the cost of entry of a good system" and people just convince themselves to spend the money. The cost is minimal. A voltage regulator is less than <$5, batteries are <$1/Ahr and using solar for regular acceptance charging is painful (ugly, takes space on deck, slow, increases windage, etc). The core issue is the demand volume - not only is the boating market small but the added benefits of a "good charging system" are not worth it for most sailors. So you have companies like Balmer charging 100x the cost selling to a market of may be 500 hard core cruisers worldwide who do DIY upgrades. If you want to participate in this market more power to you. I would rather invest in standard parts and put more money in better sails, good food at the destination, etc.
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