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Old 24-03-2017, 08:26   #16
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

You can buy higher capacity alternators you know, they aren't all that expensive. You should also consider the other advice about increasing your solar and wind power generation to offset some of the ongoing energy costs (fuel).


Do NOT top off your batteries in the AM as suggested however, that leaves absolutely nothing for your solar and wind to do. Get as much from the sun and wind as you can, then top off your batteries before you go to bed. This MAXIMIZES the amount of energy gained from solar and wind and MINIMIZES the amount of fuel you will need to burn.
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Old 24-03-2017, 08:30   #17
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

Hi RSB,

If you're comfortable with spreadsheets, I built one that was very helpful in figuring out amp-hour usage and thus battery and charging requirements for my smaller boat (house bank 2 x 105AH g31 batteries). The process tends to be iterative, and using a spreadsheet makes the re-calculations easy.

If you'd like a copy, send me your email address, and I'll send it to you along with a description of how to use it.
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Old 24-03-2017, 08:33   #18
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

I had replaced my nattery bank with Gel batteries and that Smart charger was the best. Loaded my batteries to the max without damaging my batteries. Smart chargers are not that expensive and I also had wind generator along with 125 A alternator and 3 large solar panels. After crossing the Pacific, I also changed all bulbs to LED's and never had any problem running my fridge and freezer to the max. I feel a smart charger will protect your batteries and also insure longer life. Good luck and enjoy. Ice
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Old 24-03-2017, 08:34   #19
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
This, I can get 80 amps out of my 125 amp alternator, and it cuts back intermittently due to heat.
To generate power, you generate heat. How can the same size and weight alternator with the same cooling fans etc., make three or more times the power without overheating? I don't think they can.
My belief is if you try to actually pull the high amps out of these that they can make, without thermal protection, you will burn one up.
I'm not real sure your getting more actual output out of these big small frame alternators than a medium power one.
Indeed. It's been said over and over again, but it's worth saying over and over again --

Car-type alternators which come standard on yacht engines are not made to generate bulk power. They will not produce their rated power, and in many cases not anywhere near their rated power, even with good regulation.

If you want to produce bulk power -- that is, charge a battery bank with enough power to run your systems, using the alternator -- you should have equipment designed for that job -- one or another type of heavy duty ("school bus") alternator, preferably a large frame one, if it will fit.

My Leece Neville produces its full rated output from about 1800 RPM, and will produce it 24/7/365, because it was made for this. That's 110 amps @ 24v or about 2.5kW of power. Main problem I have is remembering to keep the dual belts tight enough -- that much power puts a lot of strain on the belts (serpentine would have been better).
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Old 24-03-2017, 09:01   #20
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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My Leece Neville produces its full rated output from about 1800 RPM, and will produce it 24/7/365,
Also worth repeating that it probably won't

Get towards 80% state of charge and no matter what size of a power station you have connected the batteries will rapidly tail off the amount of charge they will accept so a big fat alternator might not actually do much more for the money. There was a compass article a while ago showing something like a 20 minute gain in charging time for twice the size of charger.
As ever much depends on usage, bearing in mind as well newer alternators could well have a regulator set at 14.6 ish so a smart regulator might not be doing much at all.

Lots factors involved
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Old 24-03-2017, 09:20   #21
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scot McPherson View Post
You can buy higher capacity alternators you know, they aren't all that expensive. You should also consider the other advice about increasing your solar and wind power generation to offset some of the ongoing energy costs (fuel).


Do NOT top off your batteries in the AM as suggested however, that leaves absolutely nothing for your solar and wind to do. Get as much from the sun and wind as you can, then top off your batteries before you go to bed. This MAXIMIZES the amount of energy gained from solar and wind and MINIMIZES the amount of fuel you will need to burn.
If you run the engine in the morning with batteries at a lower SoC then the engine alternator can give maximum benefit as it's charging in bulk mode. So you can pump in the maximum number of amp hours for the time you run the engine.

Then over the longer charging period of daylight hours that will allow the solar panels to top off the batteries in absorption and/or float mode when the batteries' charge acceptance is lower. To do this with the engine would be burning the same amount of fuel to put our very few amps from the alternator for a long time trying to top off the batteries.
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Old 24-03-2017, 09:39   #22
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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Also worth repeating that it probably won't

Get towards 80% state of charge and no matter what size of a power station you have connected the batteries will rapidly tail off the amount of charge they will accept so a big fat alternator might not actually do much more for the money. There was a compass article a while ago showing something like a 20 minute gain in charging time for twice the size of charger.
As ever much depends on usage, bearing in mind as well newer alternators could well have a regulator set at 14.6 ish so a smart regulator might not be doing much at all.

Lots factors involved
The point being made was the Leece Neville alternator can produce the output when the stock alternators cannot. Was not addressing the SOC or charge acceptance of the batteries.

True a larger alternator will also taper off based on the SoC of the batteries but with a very large battery bank, the difference in charge time between a stock 55-85 amp alternator (very common size on marine engines) with a non-smart regulator vs a smart regulated 150-200 amp alternator will be very significant, especially in the range from 50% to 80% SoC that is a common charge regimen for off the grid cruisers.
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Old 24-03-2017, 09:39   #23
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

It depends what you are trying to optimize. If cost, then you need minimum batteries, say 200AHrs for $200, cheapest alternator (about $100 for an 80Ahr unit) and no regulator. You charge up to 80% and be prepared to replace batteries every 2-3 years. The alternator will not work that hard as after an hour of charging the battery will start limiting the current anyway. This is the setup of 90% of the casual boaters.

If optimizing noise of mind then you need to add solar to push the battery from 80% to 99% and double battery life.

A regulator helps in the bulk charge with cheap alternators (keeping the voltage and respectively current at max, this reducing bulk charging times. You may burn some cheap alternators this way but this is rare and they are cheap and fast to replace. A regulator helps in the accept phase as well but it is not optimal to run the engine just to push a few amps in the batteries in accept mode. Solar is better for that.

Modifying an alternator for external control is a 15 min DIY.

Good luck.
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Old 24-03-2017, 09:49   #24
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

Thanks everyone. This has been a great help. I will post again after I've made some progress.
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Old 24-03-2017, 10:01   #25
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

Quote:
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The point being made was.......
.
That..

Lots factors involved
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Old 24-03-2017, 10:28   #26
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
The point being made was the Leece Neville alternator can produce the output when the stock alternators cannot. Was not addressing the SOC or charge acceptance of the batteries.

True a larger alternator will also taper off based on the SoC of the batteries but with a very large battery bank, the difference in charge time between a stock 55-85 amp alternator (very common size on marine engines) with a non-smart regulator vs a smart regulated 150-200 amp alternator will be very significant, especially in the range from 50% to 80% SoC that is a common charge regimen for off the grid cruisers.
Yes, that's what I was trying to say.

Conachair is right of course that your batts won't accept more than they can accept -- which ought to be fairly obvious.

He's also right that smart regulation does not actually always make such a difference -- MaineSail did some brilliant work on this, which is posted on his site.

However, sometimes you need as much power as you can get, up to 25% of C, to stuff power into your batts after discharging them deeply, and car-type alternators will heat up and protect themselves by cutting the output, and you never get anywhere. MaineSail also wrote about this. And if you run AC equipment through an inverter like I do, while underway, then you likewise may need a lot more power than you can get out of a wimpy car-type alternator.

The point was that for bulk power, you need a device designed for the purpose. Car-type alternators are made to run small consumers on a car, and to top off batteries, not bulk charge them, since you hardly every use more than a couple percent of a car battery, in a car. They are ill suited for use on cruising boats, other than for topping off a dedicated start battery (what I use my standard Yanmar alternator for).
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Old 24-03-2017, 10:37   #27
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

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Originally Posted by Pizzazz View Post
It depends what you are trying to optimize. If cost, then you need minimum batteries, say 200AHrs for $200, cheapest alternator (about $100 for an 80Ahr unit) and no regulator. You charge up to 80% and be prepared to replace batteries every 2-3 years. The alternator will not work that hard as after an hour of charging the battery will start limiting the current anyway. This is the setup of 90% of the casual boaters.. . . .
It is very unlikely you will get a 200AH bank of flooded LA batteries from 50% to 80% in one hour with an unregulated 80 Amp (NOT "Ahr") alternator, or with any alternator.

That nominally 80 amp alternator might only produce 50 or 60 amps even when cold, at cruising RPM, depending on how it's geared, and might only produce 30 or 40 amps when hot (and might cycle almost off). Then subtract from the real life alternator output, the power being used at the time by the boat's systems, to get what is available to charge batteries.

THEN, depending on how the dumb regulator is set up, the set voltage might limit the charging current even more.

So, the setup "90% of casual boaters use" might really not be at all satisfactory, if you need to produce real life power you can use overnight at anchor etc. So even if you're trying to optimize cost, this might not be the optimum setup. A heavy duty alternator is not that expensive; you might save money on the regulator if you're on a really tight budget.
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Old 24-03-2017, 10:41   #28
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

most alternators have regulators built right in.
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Old 24-03-2017, 11:05   #29
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

Simple answer is YES on a sailboat, no on a power boat. A smart regulator should be part of any system. Alternators are designed an set up to provide power while the engine is running NOT to charge batteries and they are very inefficient as chargers. Basically they do not provide a high enough voltage to complete the charge cycle. It is also far to cheaper to use a smart reg than to increase bank size. A smart reg should charge the batteries in under 3hr provided its output is 1/5 of the bank size ie 500ah = 100a alt. Any bigger will not shorten charge time. Adding solar gives more options but if you do that instead of setting up an effective engine charger you may run short when solar conditions are less than idea, depends on the size of the solar installation. Usually not a problem on a cat, almost always difficult on a mono
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Old 24-03-2017, 11:06   #30
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Re: Do I need a "Smart" voltage regulator?

The benefit of using standard parts is that they are widely available and inexpensive. When I started upgrading my charging system, I looked hard for a Yanmar compatible big frame alternator following the advice in the group. Could not find any under $400. If I used a nonstandard unit, then I would have to modify the mount, align the belt, it was too much effort. So then I got my $80 / 80A alternator from Amazon, modified it for external regulation in 15 min, replaced it in another 15 min and moved on to other projects. I get 80A at idle as the alternator pulley is matched to the engine (standard part).

Thus, my advice is stay with standard parts, replace often. Once you go custom you start spending double or triple for not much extra benefit.
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