Distance from inlet to main breaker

[smac999]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Actually, your modification is not safe.

As found, the ELCI protected all downstream AC circuits from the inverter/charger or shore power produced AC current from possible ground fault.

By moving the ELCI between the shore power inlet and inverter charger, any AC produced by the inverter is not ELCI protected.

I recommend you return the ELCI location to between the inverter charger and AC distribution panel.

generally the inverter is only in half of the AC system. split between inverter and non inverter loads. so then only half the boat would be elci...

do you have an ELCI and an isolation transformer on your gen output? of course not. it's not needed for ship produced power. there is nowhere for the power to leak too. it has to go back to the source which is your boat.

[TheThunderbird]

Easy go
I have a portable electric panel, with breaker, placed between AC inlet and shore power.

It allows me for 3 european sockets, 32A, 16A, schuco (7A)

[Redline452]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Actually, your modification is not safe.



As found, the ELCI protected all downstream AC circuits from the inverter/charger or shore power produced AC current from possible ground fault.



By moving the ELCI between the shore power inlet and inverter charger, any AC produced by the inverter is not ELCI protected.



I recommend you return the ELCI location to between the inverter charger and AC distribution panel.

As smac wrote, inverter power does not present the same risk of ground leakage that shore power does. Also, all our AC outlets are GFCIs which are more sensitive than an ELCI. The only non-outlet AC load we have is... the water heater, which we never run on the inverter.

My ELCI is staying next to the shore inlet.

I may in fact add a second ELCI because I'd like an AC inlet at the bow in the anchor well, because I'm getting tired of always using two 50' 30A shore power cable to reach the shore outlet when we dock bow-in. "Doing this right" will need an ELCI at the inlet, then a run of #30 all the way aft to a transfer switch/breaker before the charger.

It would be a lot simpler (and cheaper) to blow off the 10' rule, but I am not cutting that corner.

Payback... never, but I think of this every time I uncoil or stow the second cord.

[Frankly]

This is probably more of a terminology issue but the main breaker serves two main purposes (setting aside any GFI/ ELCI operation).

(1) protection of the main circuit against overloads. In this consideration the breaker can be anywhere upstream of the load (typically main panel). It will function just a well at the shore power connector or at the main panel.

(2) protection against short circuit/ ground faults. Now we want the breaker as close as possible to the shore power inlet. If the cable between the SP inlet and the main panel develops a short circuit then it will only be protected downstream of the breaker. As a practical matter if you are plugged into a properly functioning shore power system the pedestal breaker will also clear the fault condition.

Don't think I would let the length of the cable between the shore power inlet and the MB keep me up at night as much as the condition of the cable.

The GFI/ AFCI functions are also not compromised by locating the main breaker at the panel end.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Redline452

As smac wrote, inverter power does not present the same risk of ground leakage that shore power does. Also, all our AC outlets are GFCIs which are more sensitive than an ELCI. The only non-outlet AC load we have is... the water heater, which we never run on the inverter.

My ELCI is staying next to the shore inlet.

I may in fact add a second ELCI because I'd like an AC inlet at the bow in the anchor well, because I'm getting tired of always using two 50' 30A shore power cable to reach the shore outlet when we dock bow-in. "Doing this right" will need an ELCI at the inlet, then a run of #30 all the way aft to a transfer switch/breaker before the charger.

It would be a lot simpler (and cheaper) to blow off the 10' rule, but I am not cutting that corner.

Payback... never, but I think of this every time I uncoil or stow the second cord.

Incorrect. A properly installed marine inverter / charger is connected to the vessel AC grounding system. The only difference is that when connected to shore power, the grounding system is tied to earth at the distribution panel. When shore power is disconnected the grounding reference is to the source grounding (inverter, generator, etc.) If the ELCI is installed correctly, it
Will trip a ground fault from inverter or generator (as well as shore power
When connected) Above does not pertain to a non Marine floating inverter.

[mitiempo]

ABYC E 11.11.1

An ELCI shall be installed with or in addition to the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker(s) or at the additional overcurrent protection as required by E 11. 10.2 8.3 whichever is closer to the shore power connection.

[Rowglide]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

ABYC E 11.11.1

An ELCI shall be installed with or in addition to the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker(s) or at the additional overcurrent protection as required by E 11. 10.2 8.3 whichever is closer to the shore power connection.

So to be clear... Shore power inlet - ground isolator - less than 10' wire - circuit breaker - more wire - ELCI/circuit breaker at panel.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Rowglide

So to be clear... Shore power inlet - ground isolator - less than 10' wire - circuit breaker - more wire - ELCI/circuit breaker at panel.

Correct! And if there is another AC source (such as an inverter or generator) the switching mechanism (that may be an inverter internal transfer switch) has to be before the ELCI, or the downstream circuits are not protected by the ELCI.

[TheThunderbird]

Let me resort to your professional advice, please.

I took the ground line off, cause of repeated breakings when on shore power (rarely so, l depend on genny) even without any drawing of current.

Also l noticed that l had continuity in most (8 out of 12) of 220V sockets onboard, between the blue wire (Line) and ground (yellow/green), and l cut it off either.

I increased an existing copper plate in transom, but l don't know YET whether it works for AC/DC or both.....

Now, shore power is thru 2 main breakers, one before -magnetothermic-, another after -differential- the Marinco inlet.

After the deviator (SP/genny) on panel, l have another main switch 40A going back to Panel (where l am ordering new breakers from oem Heinemann for 220AC) and to 4 other DIN BREAKERS behind.

KITCHEN bypasses that main switch, as it has its own 30A DIN breaker.
The electric panel is grounded (yellow/green) but its 220VAC breakers have 2 poles only :-) . Does it make sense??

Note:
Boilers are safely away, operated from panel switch.
Grill oven was professionally inspected 2years ago....sure, we could personally inspect insulation again...
My cooking hob is an Induction plate, so it is physically insulated, like a Transformer Insulator, as the Genny is (its output is a 2-wire cord).

Any other eventual appliance should have a plastic cover...

I think and hope it is OK

Any major faults!? Or comments? Unfortunately, legacy is a major factor after 30years of different owners and multiple changes from many persons... the rear panel is hardly manageable...with 10# of wires hanging around, making even visual access difficult...

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Incorrect. A properly installed marine inverter / charger is connected to the vessel AC grounding system. The only difference is that when connected to shore power, the grounding system is tied to earth at the distribution panel. When shore power is disconnected the grounding reference is to the source grounding (inverter, generator, etc.) If the ELCI is installed correctly, it
Will trip a ground fault from inverter or generator (as well as shore power
When connected) Above does not pertain to a non Marine floating inverter.

Clairifcation - The only difference is that when connected to shore power, the grounding system is tied to earth at the shoreside distribution panel.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Frankly

This is probably more of a terminology issue but the main breaker serves two main purposes (setting aside any GFI/ ELCI operation).

Yes, it is difficult when different terminology is used. For responses, I will do my best to use ABYC definitions.

(1) protection of the main circuit against overloads. In this consideration the breaker can be anywhere upstream of the load (typically main panel). It will function just a well at the shore power connector or at the main panel.

(2) protection against short circuit/ ground faults. Now we want the breaker as close as possible to the shore power inlet. If the cable between the SP inlet and the main panel develops a short circuit then it will only be protected downstream of the breaker. As a practical matter if you are plugged into a properly functioning shore power system the pedestal breaker will also clear the fault condition.

By ABYC standards, the "Main Breaker" protects from "over-current" (higher current than trip rating) in the downstream "ungrounded" or "grounded" AC conductor. It is configured such that "Reverse Polarity" will be indicated before the breaker is switched on, to ensure the grounded conductor (neutral in residential wiring) is the "white" conductor in the colour-coded wiring aboard.

This is so that all switches and breakers actually disconnect the ungrounded conductor (hot in residential wiring), so that downstream of the switch of breaker there can be no current.

So a fuse or breaker, rated at 15 A, will trip if ANY condition cause greater than 15 A to pass between line and neutral (and line to ground because somewhere, the two are connected).

"Ground fault protection" is only provided by either a GFCI (5 mA) or an ELCI 30 mA). This monitors the current travelling in the ungrounded (black) and grounded and (white) conductor. If there is a difference greater than the trip value, the device disconnects the protected downstream circuit. (It is assumed that the difference is because current is travelling between the ungrounded conductor (black), through a person, to the grounding (green) conductor ("ground" or "earth" in residential wiring).

The purpose is to prevent 80 mA or higher, from travelling through a person, which could potentially stop their heart (electrocute then).

So folks, if you don't know this stuff (per what ever marine electrical standard applies in your region), don't #$%%^ with it, because you could accidentally kill people on or around your boat.