cooking top with 3400W: Victron Quattro 12V/3000W with a power assist 1000W inverter

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@olema #13
In theory you are correct. However the following are important considerations:
> The 300A/24V alternator would require about 15hp. A 42’ sailboat has an auxiliary engine << 100hp (probably about 60hp) so this alternator would require a significant portion of the available propulsion power.
> Belt load-serpentine belt would be warranted.
> Side load on engine bearings would be probably be > that allowed by engine manufacturer.
> Alternators are very inefficient machines, thermally speaking. That inefficiency manifests itself as heat that has to be managed.

correct, have a 62hp green hell Volvo MD30A.
The 60A standard alternator chargeres the 2 12V starter/bowtruster/windlass batteries, FIAMM AGM 140AH plus 2 small solar panels with 200W to top up. (all there and 1 year old)


housebank plan now is 2x Tesla 242AH/24V OR 5,6kw=484AH/11,2KWH, a 5kw Quattro and batteries to be charged with (in order of preference/plan to use)

a) approx 1200W solar panels (300W there, add 900W) , yes around 600-800W will be the real output, main power source at anker and around 300W when underway
b) Silentwind wind gen (already there), anker or underway as additional charge

c) Shaft generator with permanent magnet generator delivering around 15A/24V at 5kn (to add), main power source when sailing (especially downwind when wind gen is useless)

d) will mount 2x 24V 80A Alternators with external regulator (mounted opposite each other to balance load on the bearings), around 5-7hp I can spare when the engine is running. But aim is not to run the engine to charge battery but to charge housebank when engine is running anyhow.

e) 2000W gasoline generator (already on board and fixed mounted), maybe swap out for a small diesel genset. But I need to see where I end up with a)-d), hope I need it only very very seldom and then the gasoline one is acceptable.
f) a sterling 24V to 12V battery to battery charger in case the 12V alternator fails.



Doing a world circum and will go to remote places, so self sufficent is key and as less as sources to manage/store as possible.

That why I delete propane (beside I don't like it) and go with electric kitchen and upgrade the 500l diesel tank to 850l.
Boat I bought is fully kitted for bluewater, only the energy/power generation side and housebank is not up to the task I plan as former owner planned and did go to marinas whenever possible and charge with shorepower. I will do this opposite, stay in bays/anchorage and remote whenever I can.
Will also have more 220V and 24Vgear then he had like washing machine, freezer, PC, Ipads, stereo...so the power for that stuff need to be generated and stored.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@olema #13
In theory you are correct. However the following are important considerations:
> The 300A/24V alternator would require about 15hp. A 42’ sailboat has an auxiliary engine << 100hp (probably about 60hp) so this alternator would require a significant portion of the available propulsion power.
> Belt load-serpentine belt would be warranted.
> Side load on engine bearings would be probably be > that allowed by engine manufacturer.
> Alternators are very inefficient machines, thermally speaking. That inefficiency manifests itself as heat that has to be managed.

Huh, seems totally irrelevant.

[CharlieJ]

@rom
No, the best answer he got was to use a 5kw Quattro. I also think that s/v Jedi's recommendation (#12) will work, but it is a true hack.

Issues with the hack:
> How long can the 1000W inverter provide full 1000W to the input of the Quattro?
> Two sets of B+/B- cabling?
> Two Class T fuses.
> Two isolation switches.

[CharlieJ]

@Cadence #17

Comment #14 is spot on relevant to the referenced Comment #13.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@rom
No, the best answer he got was to use a 5kw Quattro. I also think that s/v Jedi's recommendation (#12) will work, but it is a true hack.

Issues with the hack:
> How long can the 1000W inverter provide full 1000W to the input of the Quattro?
> Two sets of B+/B- cabling?
> Two Class T fuses.
> Two isolation switches.

not a fan of hacks

and the issues/gear for the hack you mention + 3kw Quattro will cost nearly the same as a 24V 5kW Quattro. housebank needs update anyhow, 12V solution would have been 12V/700AH Winston cells with the 3kw+1kw inverters but that would require some cabling changes and upgrades. Thick cables and gear is not cheap either.



the 24V solution will allow me to use most of the existing 12V cabling. the 24 to 12V step down adapters will be mounted close to the 12V equipment groups. the 24V solution with the 5kw Quattro has more headroom for the 230V equipment and more total capacity. so less wear and use on all parts=better liability and longelivity.

[CharlieJ]

@CaptainRivet #20:

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@rom
No, the best answer he got was to use a 5kw Quattro. I also think that s/v Jedi's recommendation (#12) will work, but it is a true hack.

I would not want to call it a recommendation, at no point did I use that word. In fact, I wrote that it probably wouldn’t work because I questioned that 1,000W inverter to be good enough for it

[CharlieJ]

@s/v Jedi #22

My apologies. Please consider changing “recommendation” to “musing” in my post #18.

[witzgall]

Inverters are typically rated for a surge value, and a continuous value. The continuous value should be taken with a gain of salt, as it won't hold that value if internal temperature sensors dial back the current, which should be a feature of any good inverter. It won't keep the current up either if the input voltage sags considerably. My Victron 24/3000 will dial back both when charging or inverting after a time if it cannot stay cool. This is not a knock on the unit, it works as advertised in my book. In my installation it cannot keep up 70a charging nor 3000 watt inverting indefinitely (Lithium bank). YMMV.

Victron has documentation on their website about what is needed to parallel their units.

Oversizing is a good choice.

Chris

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

2 3000W are 4500Euro versus 3200Euro for a 12V or 24V/5000W one...plus the additional space used. No thank you.
And this didn't answer my question. 3000W one plus my existing 1000W one drive a 3400W load plus the start up spike/surge? Its a 2 burner induction cooktop 3400W (2000+1400W burners) so i can start low and then go up so the spike shouldn't be big.

The 3000VA Victron inverters are VA, not watts. In ideal circumstances and low temperature they might make 2500 watts, but in normal circumstances will not do even 2000 watts continuously. I know because I've had one for almost 10 years.


You would want the 5000VA one for this, or a pair of 3000VA ones, or else downsize the cooker, or just don't use both burners at high wattage at the same time. I don't know where you're getting your prices; the 3000VA Multiplus costs £1500 in the UK; the 5000VA one is £2230 -- including VAT. https://www.es-store.co.uk/product_l...4&show_menu=23. That's a pretty good value in my opinion.


I use two separate induction hobs at the same time off my inverter; it's not really a problem if you're conscious of the watts and set the thing correctly. The NuWave is 2000 watts max but the Medium setting is 1200 watts and does all the same things only a little slower. Not using both on high wattage at the same time has never been an issue for me.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

correct, have a 62hp green hell Volvo MD30A.
The 60A standard alternator chargeres the 2 12V starter/bowtruster/windlass batteries, FIAMM AGM 140AH plus 2 small solar panels with 200W to top up. (all there and 1 year old)


housebank plan now is 2x Tesla 242AH/24V OR 5,6kw=484AH/11,2KWH, a 5kw Quattro and batteries to be charged with (in order of preference/plan to use)

a) approx 1200W solar panels (300W there, add 900W) , yes around 600-800W will be the real output, main power source at anker and around 300W when underway
b) Silentwind wind gen (already there), anker or underway as additional charge

c) Shaft generator with permanent magnet generator delivering around 15A/24V at 5kn (to add), main power source when sailing (especially downwind when wind gen is useless)

d) will mount 2x 24V 80A Alternators with external regulator (mounted opposite each other to balance load on the bearings), around 5-7hp I can spare when the engine is running. But aim is not to run the engine to charge battery but to charge housebank when engine is running anyhow.

e) 2000W gasoline generator (already on board and fixed mounted), maybe swap out for a small diesel genset. But I need to see where I end up with a)-d), hope I need it only very very seldom and then the gasoline one is acceptable.
f) a sterling 24V to 12V battery to battery charger in case the 12V alternator fails.



Doing a world circum and will go to remote places, so self sufficent is key and as less as sources to manage/store as possible.

That why I delete propane (beside I don't like it) and go with electric kitchen and upgrade the 500l diesel tank to 850l.
Boat I bought is fully kitted for bluewater, only the energy/power generation side and housebank is not up to the task I plan as former owner planned and did go to marinas whenever possible and charge with shorepower. I will do this opposite, stay in bays/anchorage and remote whenever I can.
Will also have more 220V and 24Vgear then he had like washing machine, freezer, PC, Ipads, stereo...so the power for that stuff need to be generated and stored.

Concerning the alternator --


You don't need a giant one. 300 amps @ 24v would be gross overkill, very hard to manage the heat, the belt loads, the load on the engine at partial throttle when motoring.


I have dual alternators, stock 12v one charging the engine start batt and 100 amp 24v Leece Neville cheap standard school bus alternator charging house. The Leece Neville pumps out an honest 2kW at cruising RPM and will do so happily 24/7/365, does not take so much power as to overload the engine even at low speeds, stays reasonably cool, and is dead simple and cheap to repair or replace when necessary.


I do lots of induction cooking off the alternator (I even run laundry through washer/dryer with it); this is more than enough power. You only need to cover the average power consumption; the batteries will shave the peaks. If you have lithium batts and want to be able to pump a lot of power into them fast, you might go 150 amps but I think beyond that it becomes very difficult to manage.

[tekdiver]

Originally Posted by YANDINA

I hope you've done the mathematics on battery size.
A 5 minute boiled egg will discharge a 100 amp hour battery and take 3 days to recharge with a 250W solar. YMMV

Wow thats a ton of power to boil an egg

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by tekdiver

Wow thats a ton of power to boil an egg

I don't know where those numbers come from.


To boil 1/2 liter of water from 25C requires 87 watt/hours of power. On an induction hob which is at least 70% efficient that would take no more than 124 watt/hours of power. Then you have to simmer it for 5 minutes -- how much will that take? At most another 124 watt/hours? Probably less. That's 0.25kW/hours of power or maybe 19 amp/hours at nominal 12v. Take a smallish 440 amp/hour lead/acid battery bank with practical capacity of 220. -- that's just 9% of the usable capacity. To put it another way, it's less than 10 minutes of output from my alternator. It's one hour of nominal output from a 250 watt solar power, or maybe two hours of practical output.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't know where those numbers come from.

From those who ridicule induction cooking so that they feel better about not having it

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

correct, have a 62hp green hell Volvo MD30A.
The 60A standard alternator chargeres the 2 12V starter/bowtruster/windlass batteries, FIAMM AGM 140AH plus 2 small solar panels with 200W to top up. (all there and 1 year old)


housebank plan now is 2x Tesla 242AH/24V OR 5,6kw=484AH/11,2KWH, a 5kw Quattro and batteries to be charged with (in order of preference/plan to use)

a) approx 1200W solar panels (300W there, add 900W) , yes around 600-800W will be the real output, main power source at anker and around 300W when underway
b) Silentwind wind gen (already there), anker or underway as additional charge

c) Shaft generator with permanent magnet generator delivering around 15A/24V at 5kn (to add), main power source when sailing (especially downwind when wind gen is useless)

d) will mount 2x 24V 80A Alternators with external regulator (mounted opposite each other to balance load on the bearings), around 5-7hp I can spare when the engine is running. But aim is not to run the engine to charge battery but to charge housebank when engine is running anyhow.

e) 2000W gasoline generator (already on board and fixed mounted), maybe swap out for a small diesel genset. But I need to see where I end up with a)-d), hope I need it only very very seldom and then the gasoline one is acceptable.
f) a sterling 24V to 12V battery to battery charger in case the 12V alternator fails.

Doing a world circum and will go to remote places, so self sufficent is key and as less as sources to manage/store as possible.

That why I delete propane (beside I don't like it) and go with electric kitchen and upgrade the 500l diesel tank to 850l.
Boat I bought is fully kitted for bluewater, only the energy/power generation side and housebank is not up to the task I plan as former owner planned and did go to marinas whenever possible and charge with shorepower. I will do this opposite, stay in bays/anchorage and remote whenever I can.
Will also have more 220V and 24Vgear then he had like washing machine, freezer, PC, Ipads, stereo...so the power for that stuff need to be generated and stored.

Sounds like a decent plan.


Redundancy is important, but I think you may even have overkill here. I would delete the shaft generator and get a folding prop so you have decent sailing performance.


I would delete the wind generator as not effective at producing usable amounts of power for a boat like yours. Just makes windage (affecting sailing performance) and noise.


A small super simple fixed diesel genset is a very good thing -- something like a Phasor or NexGen maybe. But with all that solar and with good alternators, that's probably optional. If you end up needing that really just for backup, then the suitcase gen will be OK. OTOH, if you are washing clothes and doing electric cooking, it's very good to do that kind of task with the generator running.