Controversial Electrical Post - That’s your warning

[Hermia II]

Putt Putt, I agree totally!
Please also consider that Crimped on Terminal Theory is most often based on professional tooling. I.e. a crimp tool at $ 350:- or more, where as most yachties uses cheap tools from the car pimping store. It makes a hell of a difference.
Crimping, soldering and shrink tubing, with a sticky inside, is very good practice in my book.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Putt-Putt

I do have 2 issues that I have never seen addressed. Perhaps some of the learned Professionals here can provide some Physics based answers.

#1. ABYC effectively states that solder shall not be the sole mechanism in play at a wire termination. Fair enough. Far too often most laymen seem to conclude from this that solder is not preferred or it's even forbidden. The common reason give is that the solder makes a stranded wire into a single stand and as a result a "hard point" exists. This hard point is less tolerant of vibration and could result in early wire fracture.

My understanding of the reason that solder singularly is forbidden is that if the resistance at the connection increases sufficiently, heating to the point of melting the solder could result in a mechanical failure of the joint. It has nothing to do with a "hard point" or vibration.

Furthermore, the "hard point" condition exists inside or just adjacent to the barrel of a properly crimped but unsoldered termination as the stranded wire is made solid by compression of the barrel. The transition to stranded/flexible has too occur somewhere.

Effective strain relief, (here I don't accept the nylon jacket on the crimp on termination as effective) and restraint are the order of the day regardless of how you terminate the wire.

Hi and Welcome.

Solder alone is prohibited in connections that carry a significant amperage (eg > 1A) in just about every electrical code: ISO, NEC, etc etc

Solder is discouraged/prohibited in most marine connections because of:

• the heating thing as you mentioned
• the brittleness thing

... but here's some others that don't get mentioned a lot:

• just about any doofus can repeatably make a dependable crimp with the right simple-to-obtain tools and a little practice. But soldering is a skill, and one that not very many people get competent at. And even good solderers have bad days.
• It's pretty easy to field-test a crimp: they're easy to inspect visually and to do a pull test. Solder?? you can see too little/too much solder, or whether it's a cold-soldered joint; beyond that you don't know what's under there.

A soldered lug connection, if there was excessive solder that wicks up into the wire, will make that wire more brittle than crimp alone.

Your process ( strip, crimp, solder (just at the lug side!) ,clean, heat shrink) ... nothing wrong with it. Gold standard. But if it was shown that simply crimping, then spreading a little dielectric or similar goo on the exposed wire parts, was shown to be 99% as good for conductivity and longevity as your process... would you still choose to rewire an entire boat by soldering and heatshrinking every lug?


Good strain relief, and preventing repetitive flex or pulling - yeah they're important regardless.

#2 Wire terminations of 10 ga. or less are typically open barrel, open at both barrel ends. On a properly done crimp on termination, the ends of the cut strands are exposed to the environment and the barrel at the ends is largely unaffected by the crimping action. This results in an ideal condition for moisture to collect and work down the wire by capillary action. Here tinned wire only delays the corrosion. I know of no way to effectively seal the end of a nylon jacketed crimp on wire termination other than goo, which likely won't stick to nylon long term, do you?

A protectant like dielectric grease will get into and cling to the metal surfaces. Adhesive-lined heatshrink is of course very good too. The ultimate would be both, I guess: a tiny dab of grease on the exposed wire, then cover with adhesive-lined heatshrink.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Put.
Good first post. [tho I don't entirely agree]
Consider also:
“Soldering Electrical Joints” ~ Nature magazine [1942]

”... There are two broad classes of soldering, namely, soft soldering in which tin-lead alloys are mainly used and hard soldering in which alloys of copper-zinc (brazing) or of silver-copper-zinc (silver soldering) are employed. Soft soldering is used very extensively in electrical work and silver soldering to some considerable extent; brazing is rarely used.
The electrical conductivity of soft and hard solders is considerably less than that of copper, varying with composition between approximately 9 percent and 13 percent for soft solders and 20 percent and 40 percent for silver solders ...”

➥ https://www.nature.com/articles/150371b0

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Putt-Putt

Good Day all, 1st post here so be nice, please.



This is an interesting topic and one that I've spent some time researching and thinking about in an effort to determine how make dependable wire terminations on board.

I understand that the industry is focused on providing quickly made and electrically efficient terminations, but find the Panduit Report referenced earlier somewhat astonishing when it states that;



- there is no official standard for void percentage.

- the industry suggests that a void percentage of 10% or less is considered

"gas tight."

-an ideal crimp will produce uniform compression....in practice uniform

compression is rarely achieved.



I am familiar with and understand the ABYC Standards with respect to wire terminations and generally agree with them.



I do have 2 issues that I have never seen addressed. Perhaps some of the learned Professionals here can provide some Physics based answers.



#1. ABYC effectively states that solder shall not be the sole mechanism in play at a wire termination. Fair enough. Far too often most laymen seem to conclude from this that solder is not preferred or it's even forbidden. The common reason give is that the solder makes a stranded wire into a single stand and as a result a "hard point" exists. This hard point is less tolerant of vibration and could result in early wire fracture.

My understanding of the reason that solder singularly is forbidden is that if the resistance at the connection increases sufficiently, heating to the point of melting the solder could result in a mechanical failure of the joint. It has nothing to do with a "hard point" or vibration.

Furthermore, the "hard point" condition exists inside or just adjacent to the barrel of a properly crimped but unsoldered termination as the stranded wire is made solid by compression of the barrel. The transition to stranded/flexible has too occur somewhere.

Effective strain relief, (here I don't accept the nylon jacket on the crimp on termination as effective) and restraint are the order of the day regardless of how you terminate the wire.



#2 Wire terminations of 10 ga. or less are typically open barrel, open at both barrel ends. On a properly done crimp on termination, the ends of the cut strands are exposed to the environment and the barrel at the ends is largely unaffected by the crimping action. This results in an ideal condition for moisture to collect and work down the wire by capillary action. Here tinned wire only delays the corrosion. I know of no way to effectively seal the end of a nylon jacketed crimp on wire termination other than goo, which likely won't stick to nylon long term, do you?





For these 2 reasons I'm in the camp of using high quality, soldered barrel bare terminations where my standard procedure includes strip, crimp, solder ,clean, heat shrink and then mount the wire. Tedious, yes but its the only way I know of to make a durable, gas tight termination.



Where can I do better?

By learning to crimp properly , soldering crimps is a refuge for incompetent crimping that’s all.

All the reasons you expound are not correct

Open barrel crimps provide proper electrical connection , and mechanical strain relief to the cover of the wire.

The crimp done correctly does not allow moisture to wick up the strands

Since there is flexibility at the strain relief crimp the wire stands can flex unlike solder joints where the solder typically wicks up past the crimp and forms a hard inflexible area that fails.

Lastly most people who “ think” they can solder , cannot, they have poor processes and tools and don’t understand the particular fluxes to use etc. The likelihood of a high resistance poor mechanical joint being created is high. Many crimps do not have a surface that’s amenable to good soldering and the soldering process destroys the jacket strain relief crimp.

Amateurs should learn the correct techniques and not simply “ makeup “ procedures based on guessing solutions.

Remember most of the crimps you’ll see are made using the pre insulated automotive crimps. These are terrible abominations, then the amateur uses a cheap nasty inappropriate crimp tool to make things worse

But soldering crimps is simply putting good money after bad.

[rslifkin]

Ideally if the crimp is good and you try to solder it, all you'll get is a little solder on the end and none will actually wick into the crimp. So it won't make the joint worse if it's already good, it's just unlikely to do much of anything at all.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Ideally if the crimp is good and you try to solder it, all you'll get is a little solder on the end and none will actually wick into the crimp. So it won't make the joint worse if it's already good, it's just unlikely to do much of anything at all.

If it’s tinned wires you can get extensive wicking up the strands away from the crimp. This creates an inflexible point unsupported by the crimp and a failure risk.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

If it’s tinned wires you can get extensive wicking up the strands away from the crimp. This creates an inflexible point unsupported by the crimp and a failure risk.

If the crimp is good and you're soldering from the end (not the wire side of the crimp) it shouldn't actually wick any solder in. If you're using a closed end terminal where you'd have to solder from the wire side, then absolutely, it'll make the wire brittle and shouldn't be done.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

If it’s tinned wires you can get extensive wicking up the strands away from the crimp. This creates an inflexible point unsupported by the crimp and a failure risk.

If you use something hot like a 100w gun applied to the lug where the bit of bare wire protrudes, good rosin-core solder, and you work very quickly, you can get decent solder penetration there without it wicking through the crimp to the wire end.

I know one marine electrician who did this (and then adhesive heatshrink on the wire side) for some of his pickiest customers. The solder does effectively seal that end, but it often loosens or melts the plastic sleeve. And it doesn't materially improve the electrical connection. So I don't really see the point, when a dab of protectant or dielectric grease achieves the same goal.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

If you use something hot like a 100w gun applied to the lug where the bit of bare wire protrudes, good rosin-core solder, and you work very quickly, you can get decent solder penetration there without it wicking through the crimp to the wire end.

I know one marine electrician who did this (and then adhesive heatshrink on the wire side) for some of his pickiest customers. The solder does effectively seal that end, but it often loosens or melts the plastic sleeve. And it doesn't materially improve the electrical connection. So I don't really see the point, when a dab of protectant or dielectric grease achieves the same goal.

Correct , solder adds nothing in reality , typically it destroys the mechanical strain relief as it melts back the outer casing

If you solder fast or will not wet out probably as the whole casing needs to come up to temperature, all you get is a poor joint

Learn to crimp properly , don’t solder ,it will outlast anything else.

[Putt-Putt]

Thanks to all who responded. I feel a need to respond individually, so here goes.

Scorpius, You live in a jewel of a location. I visit often. I trust the Sechelt first nation is not too much of an issue these days.

Hermia II, I have never been to Sweden, but you have a boat to envy. I'm 57' as well but propulsion is provided by 2-18 Litre Cats, sorry. I'm a bit of a tool guy who has the firm belief that if you compare the cost of having work done versus doing it yourself, the required tools are free. Working with wire 8 ga. or greater I use my T & B BPCT62500BSCR hydraulic crimper, current price about $6,000 USD, (I paid less than 10% of that, lightly used off of e-Bay about 17 years ago, it was a steal) while for lighter wire my AMP Pro Crimper II c/w a small selection of dies runs about $400. Similar quality/priced soldering, cutting, and stripping tools round out the set.

Lake Effect. Here, I'm not taking about soldering alone and agree that other than surface connections it is not acceptable.

I still don't get the brittleness thing when soldered compared to a properly done crimp. Are you contending that somehow the stranded wire at the crimp somehow remains flexible while still being gas tight, or are you saying that the uncrimped portion of the lugs barrel constrains the wire sufficiently itself to eliminate vibration?

Let's leave the doofuses and production boat builders who wire an entire boat out of the discussion as here they are not relevant, except to say I know of no boat builder who smears goo on the open end of the lug's barrel.

Yes, I solder just the lug's side, little if any solder makes it past the opposing barrel end.
If it does, then I'm relying on the wire's restraint to control vibration, which I contend is no different than your crimped only connection.

I have been known to conduct ad hoc pull tests on both crimped and crimped & soldered connections. What I if find disturbing is that for say a 10 Ga. conductor, the Nasa and Military spec. requires a pull of about 150#, UL A486A or B requires about half of that at 80#, and ABYC's E-11 requires the lofty load of just 40#. Clearly a high standard to work too. Now Nasa & the Military likely require the use of tools and lugs that are not easily obtainable by the public, so they play in a different league. That does not mean however that we should not try our best. I routinely with a crimped & soldered connection meet the Nasa spec.
Crimped alone, not so much.

GordMay. Conductive properties of metals has been know accurately for a long time. One would think that our body of knowledge on the subject might have expanded a bit since the Nature article that you forwarded, dated 26 Sept. 1942 was published.

Regardless, understanding that the both wire and the lug are Tin plated Copper, how is it that adding a little tin based solder is going to conductively degrade the connection?

Goboatingnow. Let's put aside the incomplete crimp issue, on the rare instance that that occurs to me, the lug is removed. I don't nip strands as well.

Understanding that the industry (according to the Panduit paper) does not have a standard for void percentage and that up to 10% void area is considered "gas tight" how can you maintain that water will not wick up through your crimped connection while also maintaining that solder will? Please explain the mechanism that allows this for me, I'm always willing to learn.

While you'r at it, enlighten me as to how both a tin plated wire and crimped lug "has a surface that is not amenable to good soldering", as well as what is a "jacket strain relief crimp" and how does soldering "destroy" it.

Yes, I'm on of those people who "think" they can solder, and have done so for over 45 years, 1000's of connections on lugs, board traces, pins etc. As previously stated I possess the right tools. I don't make up procedures.

rslifken. Here my experience mirrors your comments in that the solder does not make it much past the crimp. Remember, some will as there is likely 10% void area. The primary benefit the solder provides is the sealing of the open barrel end, that makes it similar to a closed end lug that I never solder The solder is likely way better that goo.
Any addition contact area that the solder provides is also welcomed as it will reduce heating.

Remember folks, I'm here to learn and perhaps pass on some of what my training, study and/ or experience proves useful, not to argue.


Thanks again.

[Putt-Putt]

Ok, posts 98 & 99 appeared while I was typing my post #100.

Just to be clear, I use bare (no nylon jacket) high quality, soldered barrel wire terminations then, clean and heat shrink.

I would never solder a nylon jacketed lug, those are reserved for temporary use only.

[goboatingnow]

Just to be clear and there’s not much point going on after this

Open barrel can be soldered from the wire termination side , closed barrel can’t.

Secondly you’ve no real control as to how far the solder will wick , to proper solder , ie where an electrical connection is made to the barrel requires the crimp to be raised to the required temp. This is very difficult to do on anything other then very small crimps.

Most people who think they can solder actually can’t.

Then the heat destroys the mechanical strain relief of the jacket crimp as it tends to melt that especially on small crimps . Notwithstanding all that many crimps do not have a surface conducive to solder and have contaminated surfaces ( and interiors )

The failure point occurs just beyond the end of the crimp , the solder often wicks into the centre of the wire here and this area has no mechanical support from the crimp. Add some vibration and the wire fails here ( ask me how I learned all this as a student in Philips industrial Audio Visual dept )

A good crimp will out perform a bad soldered crimp. Crimps where never designed to be soldered so why some insist , it’s beyond me.

If you are concerned about moisture wicking there are propriety additions that can help

Or you can use certain high performance sealing covers etc.

Again soldering Is a crutch. It offers little , badly done it’s worse and it’s unnecessary

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Putt-Putt

I still don't get the brittleness thing when soldered compared to a properly done crimp. Are you contending that somehow the stranded wire at the crimp somehow remains flexible while still being gas tight, or are you saying that the uncrimped portion of the lugs barrel constrains the wire sufficiently itself to eliminate vibration?
...
Yes, I solder just the lug's side, little if any solder makes it past the opposing barrel end. If it does, then I'm relying on the wire's restraint to control vibration, which I contend is no different than your crimped only connection.

In my professional experience (in boating and other fields), when the solder has wicked past the lug, a stranded wire is significantly more brittle at that point than the same wire in a crimped-only connection. But I agree that strain-relief near the connection is important in any case, and doesn't get enough attention in the boating world.

Let's leave the doofuses and production boat builders who wire an entire boat out of the discussion as here they are not relevant, except to say I know of no boat builder who smears goo on the open end of the lug's barrel.

If we're crafting standards, or providing information to the public (forums or otherwise) then no we can't ignore the doofuses (I say it with love; we're all doofuses at the beginning ). Production boat builders do the minimum to meet agreed standards and to get the boat past the warranty period.

It's ok for me to state that I can solder well-enough that my soldered or crimp & solder connections are safe and durable; it would be irresponsible for me to claim or imply that soldering (or crimp & solder) is generally beneficial or superior to crimp-only for everyone. The ABYC standards specify a method that seems to produce the most safe and reliable connections, most often, by the most people.

I have been known to conduct ad hoc pull tests on both crimped and crimped & soldered connections. What I if find disturbing is that for say a 10 Ga. conductor, the Nasa and Military spec. requires a pull of about 150#, UL A486A or B requires about half of that at 80#, and ABYC's E-11 requires the lofty load of just 40#.

There's a number of ways in which a lug could get heated:

• its own connection is so poor that it heats up
• another lug's connection on the same screw/stud/etc is so poor that it heats up
• the screw/stud/etc is loose or dirty and that poor connection generates the heat.

When a connection heats enough to melt solder, then you're just left with the initial mechanical strength of the crimp. Or you're left with about nothing, if the connection was solder-only.

btw, you're not the only person to question the low bar of the ABYC pull-tests. All I can suggest is that ABYC is putting forward a standard that they think can be easily applied in the field; I don't know many installers who could manually apply a 150lb pull test as they crimp lugs in the field. Perhaps there's some statistical information to show that crimps that meet or exceed ABYC's pull test values have proven to be reliable and last long enough. And of course, strain relief again, so that no lug ever gets subjected to anywhere near to the ABYC level of pull.

[Hermia II]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

By learning to crimp properly , soldering crimps is a refuge for incompetent crimping that’s all.

All the reasons you expound are not correct

Open barrel crimps provide proper electrical connection , and mechanical strain relief to the cover of the wire.

The crimp done correctly does not allow moisture to wick up the strands

Since there is flexibility at the strain relief crimp the wire stands can flex unlike solder joints where the solder typically wicks up past the crimp and forms a hard inflexible area that fails.

Lastly most people who “ think” they can solder , cannot, they have poor processes and tools and don’t understand the particular fluxes to use etc. The likelihood of a high resistance poor mechanical joint being created is high. Many crimps do not have a surface that’s amenable to good soldering and the soldering process destroys the jacket strain relief crimp.

Amateurs should learn the correct techniques and not simply “ makeup “ procedures based on guessing solutions.

Remember most of the crimps you’ll see are made using the pre insulated automotive crimps. These are terrible abominations, then the amateur uses a cheap nasty inappropriate crimp tool to make things worse

But soldering crimps is simply putting good money after bad.

Please tell me, how much did you pay for your crimping tool?

[Putt-Putt]

Lake Effect, thank you for a reasoned response.

I acknowledge and agree with most of your General Public and Boat Builder comments, and readily admit that in fibreglass work, I'm a doofuse.


Further, I'm fairly familiar with the common causes of heat initiated wire termination failures.

Again, a solder only connection should not be part of the discussion as I have never advocated for this.

One thing that has not been commented on is what kind of vibration is that we are trying to resist? Defining the question is usually a good first step in developing an answer.
Certainly the bullwhip kind of thing will be looked after by effective mounting and strain relief, so that can't be it.
That leaves relatively low amplitude vibrations as the likely cause of this wire failure.

One way that you maybe able to experience for yourself these low amplitude vibrations is too, if you have one, load up your inverter. All 3 of my approx. 2.8 kVa inverters when drawing say 200A will cause their respective 4/0 supply conductor to noticeable (to the ear and touch) vibrate. This is because they are basically switching power supplies, switching on and off at you guess it, 60 Hertz (cycles) This vibration despite adequate restraint, runs the length of the conductor and even exist in the 5/16' thick tin plated copper distribution bus. I've never measured it but my sense is it's likely about 0.001". It's not 10 thou.

Now, none of these terminations are soldered as they are closed end lugs.

The same kind of vibrations exist in smaller wire that supplies DC to any other switching power supply, think refrigerator, any small inverter, and likely some of your navigation instruments. The list could be large. With small wire/load instances, they are just too small to notice.

If this is the vibration condition that causes the wire failure, how can the barrel of the lug with it's the gap (likely about 0.005" all around to start with) between the outside of the stripped wire and the bore of the lugs barrel, that is beyond the crimp, effectively eliminate the vibration? I go back to, either way crimped & soldered or crimped only, an unrestrained "hard point" exists inside the barrel, right adjacent to the crimp.

To think the nylon barrel jacket eliminates a 1 thou amplitude vibration is wishful thinking at best.

Any other thoughts on the source/type of vibrations would likely prove useful.

Now, back to finding and eliminating the neutral/ground bond inside the cabinet constrained, stacked, clothes washer in an effort to be ELCI compliant. Finish carpentry anybody?