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17-02-2023, 18:55
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#46
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sabre 34-1 (sold) and Saga 43
Posts: 2,280
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404
The issue with that is the one from the alternator needs to be low amperage to protect my 80A alternator from overloading when trying to charge a depleted 400 AHr LiFePO4 bank so using the same one would limit the AC-DC charger to charging very slowly
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Fair point. But 50A should be good for both, I'd think. Maybe not, but running an alt at 60% loading shouldn't be too bad I wouldn't think.
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23-02-2023, 05:48
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#47
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: SE USA
Boat: Hunter 38
Posts: 1,450
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
Alternatively two Victron products might fit the bill. The Phoenix smart 50a 1+1 and the Skylla 12/70 1+1 provide a single primary output at 50a and 70a respectively and a separate limited 3a trickle charge intended for topping up a starter battery.
Anyone have any experience with these or comments regarding their application here?
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23-02-2023, 06:07
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#48
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Seabroook Texas or Southern Maine
Boat: Pearson 323, Tayana V42CC
Posts: 1,501
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404
Alternatively two Victron products might fit the bill. The Phoenix smart 50a 1+1 and the Skylla 12/70 1+1 provide a single primary output at 50a and 70a respectively and a separate limited 3a trickle charge intended for topping up a starter battery.
Anyone have any experience with these or comments regarding their application here?
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Have the Skylla and no complaints. Charges house and start. Also can use either 120V, 240V and 50 or 60hz. Has a good LiFePo4 charge profile that charges to full every two weeks or so. Good choice for what you are looking for. Also a good choice if going to Europe.
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27-02-2023, 06:06
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#49
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sabre 34-1 (sold) and Saga 43
Posts: 2,280
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaseas
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This is interesting.
They seem to be 200Ah 4D LFP batteries for $650, weighing in at 48 lb.
Defender sells a 200Ah 4D FLA for $450, weighing in at 100 lb. https://defender.com/en_us/sportsman...-group-4d-dc4d
The weight difference is as expected. The price difference makes the LFP attractive. The LFP useful capacity surely makes the LFP attractive.
My question is size. I thought LFP was not only much lighter, but significantly smaller Ah for Ah, and even more when looking at useful capacity. Why does the 4D LFP have identical rated Ah to the FLA? I'd have expected the same "box" to have 300 or even 400 Ah capacity?
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27-02-2023, 07:02
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#50
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Seabroook Texas or Southern Maine
Boat: Pearson 323, Tayana V42CC
Posts: 1,501
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingharry
This is interesting.
They seem to be 200Ah 4D LFP batteries for $650, weighing in at 48 lb.
Defender sells a 200Ah 4D FLA for $450, weighing in at 100 lb. https://defender.com/en_us/sportsman...-group-4d-dc4d
The weight difference is as expected. The price difference makes the LFP attractive. The LFP useful capacity surely makes the LFP attractive.
My question is size. I thought LFP was not only much lighter, but significantly smaller Ah for Ah, and even more when looking at useful capacity. Why does the 4D LFP have identical rated Ah to the FLA? I'd have expected the same "box" to have 300 or even 400 Ah capacity?
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Several manufacturers sell 300AH batteries in the 4D size box.
https://www.amazon.com/reBel-Batteri...1-1e5b3de13370
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27-02-2023, 08:29
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#51
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sabre 34-1 (sold) and Saga 43
Posts: 2,280
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaseas
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That's funny! That's the same vendor, with an almost identical picture of the same 4D box, with 50% more battery crammed into it. And it is believable, because it's also 20% heavier and 50% more expensive.
They picked a box, and then put various size cells in it. Unlike lead, where the size is driven by the desired capacity.
In this case, two 4D FLA gives 400Ah, or ~200Ah useful. Replace with the more expensive LFP, 300Ah, with over 200Ah useful (recognizing that they really have 100% useful, but good practice doesn't go into the top or bottom 10%), and you have 1/2 the occupied space that the 2 4D's took.
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28-02-2023, 16:08
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#52
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: SE USA
Boat: Hunter 38
Posts: 1,450
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingharry
They picked a box, and then put various size cells in it. Unlike lead, where the size is driven by the desired capacity.
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Makes sense as batteries come in standard sizes and people typically want to replace like for like.
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28-02-2023, 16:15
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#53
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: SE USA
Boat: Hunter 38
Posts: 1,450
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
So I went with 2x LiTime 200 A hr “plus” batteries. The plus indicates a beefier BMS. I got some additional discounts from the company as I went back and forth with their technical support. So far very responsive company to work with. Got 3 day delivery from GA warehouse to FL marina.
Purchased the Orion Tr Smart 12/30 non-isolated and the Skylla 12/70 1+1 from PKYS and got similar deliver times. Also needed to replace the 50A charge circuit breaker on my start battery with a 20 A as I’m using 12awg wire for the 3A trickle charge from the Skylla, and a 90 A breaker (was 50 A) for the charger circuit for the house batteries as these can charge at a much higher rate than lead.
Reconfigured the settings on my Epever Tracer 6415AN solar controller and Victron BMV-700 battery monitor.
Orion is mounted and wired, will start the Skylla install tomorrow. Batteries arrived with about 70% SOC so they are being topped and rested before being paralleled and installed.
More details and pictures as I go.
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01-03-2023, 15:21
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Jeanneau, Sunfast 3200, 32-33 feet.
Posts: 70
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
I am replacing failed and cheap AGM batteries in my Sunfast 3200. For me LIFO is attractive because it saves weight. And also if at sea, there is no sulphation from only partial charging. Plus fully charging lead acid is difficult at sea due to their absorb mode which takes several hours and commences at about 80% of the charge of the lead acid.
But since I mostly Bay sail, I might stick with AGM as its a much cheaper alternative. And in Australia, insurers will not cover any LIFO fire unless its professionally installed by marine certified electrical businesses. And that mean the businesses can charge retail prices (ie no discounts). And even then, insurance companies will only cover 50% of any damage. Plus their strategy is to take legal action against the installer. Which makes the installer very cautious.
My installer also said they had to remove a bank of LIFO because of electrical interference from the LIFO batteries ... I presume that was due to BMS unintentional outputs. They also say install a new bank of AGMs, and wait for solid state or the new tech batteries, which are coming. It seems all LIFO cells are made in China. That doesn't mean all are good! And Lifeline told me that all lithium cells come out of China - including the ones they use for their batteries.
But I wanted to say to flightlead404 about fully charging his new LIFO batteries - it is not necessary to do so, unless you are going somewhere and will need all your charge. Unlike lead acid, LIFO longevity will actually benefit from not being fully charged. If you leave your boat for a while, turn off the charger I guess - but be sure there is no trickle drain going on you do not know about. I am unsure how to stop a lithium charger at, for instance, 80% of the charge capacity of the LIFO bank.
Oh and the cheap lithiums may have a lot of differences to famous branded ones. An example is the shock absorpsion of the mounting of the cells. Also of course, the quality of the cells themselves. And then there is the assembly quality itself, the materials used. And the reliability of the BMS itself under shock conditions. While Will Prowse will tear down stuff, he doesn't test for rugged conditions. There's a huge variety in for instance the quality of Prismatic cells themselves. Just having the prismatic form is no guarantee. It seems too that top racing solo sailors, pay a lot for their lithium batteries, and the reports I have read from such sailors, they say they have been using cylindrical cells in their Lithium batteries. Which brand though - I have no idea. I guess cylindricals are more fault tolerant.
Oh and another thing. There are now LIFO certified fire extinguishers. I reckon if I go LIFO, I'll put a battery powered smoke detector inside my lazerette just in case. My boat is small enough so that I'll hear it go off! And while I am trying to save weight - a LIFO fire extinguisher that is certified here in Australia, weighs 25 kg! More than most lithium batteries. I cannot win ...
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01-03-2023, 16:30
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#55
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Seabroook Texas or Southern Maine
Boat: Pearson 323, Tayana V42CC
Posts: 1,501
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404
So I went with 2x LiTime 200 A hr “plus” batteries. The plus indicates a beefier BMS. I got some additional discounts from the company as I went back and forth with their technical support. So far very responsive company to work with. Got 3 day delivery from GA warehouse to FL marina.
Purchased the Orion Tr Smart 12/30 non-isolated and the Skylla 12/70 1+1 from PKYS and got similar deliver times. Also needed to replace the 50A charge circuit breaker on my start battery with a 20 A as I’m using 12awg wire for the 3A trickle charge from the Skylla, and a 90 A breaker (was 50 A) for the charger circuit for the house batteries as these can charge at a much higher rate than lead.
Reconfigured the settings on my Epever Tracer 6415AN solar controller and Victron BMV-700 battery monitor.
Orion is mounted and wired, will start the Skylla install tomorrow. Batteries arrived with about 70% SOC so they are being topped and rested before being paralleled and installed.
More details and pictures as I go.
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MRBF or fuses at each battery before a buss bar is good practice as is equal length battery cables. How much solar do you have? Pictures would be lovely.
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03-03-2023, 17:26
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#56
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Between Panama and Florida
Boat: Beebe Passagemaker 50'
Posts: 716
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melbourne Park
I am replacing failed and cheap AGM batteries in my Sunfast 3200. For me LIFO is attractive because it saves weight. And also if at sea, there is no sulphation from only partial charging. Plus fully charging lead acid is difficult at sea due to their absorb mode which takes several hours and commences at about 80% of the charge of the lead acid.
But since I mostly Bay sail, I might stick with AGM as its a much cheaper alternative. And in Australia, insurers will not cover any LIFO fire unless its professionally installed by marine certified electrical businesses. And that mean the businesses can charge retail prices (ie no discounts). And even then, insurance companies will only cover 50% of any damage. Plus their strategy is to take legal action against the installer. Which makes the installer very cautious.
My installer also said they had to remove a bank of LIFO because of electrical interference from the LIFO batteries ... I presume that was due to BMS unintentional outputs. They also say install a new bank of AGMs, and wait for solid state or the new tech batteries, which are coming. It seems all LIFO cells are made in China. That doesn't mean all are good! And Lifeline told me that all lithium cells come out of China - including the ones they use for their batteries.
But I wanted to say to flightlead404 about fully charging his new LIFO batteries - it is not necessary to do so, unless you are going somewhere and will need all your charge. Unlike lead acid, LIFO longevity will actually benefit from not being fully charged. If you leave your boat for a while, turn off the charger I guess - but be sure there is no trickle drain going on you do not know about. I am unsure how to stop a lithium charger at, for instance, 80% of the charge capacity of the LIFO bank.
Oh and the cheap lithiums may have a lot of differences to famous branded ones. An example is the shock absorpsion of the mounting of the cells. Also of course, the quality of the cells themselves. And then there is the assembly quality itself, the materials used. And the reliability of the BMS itself under shock conditions. While Will Prowse will tear down stuff, he doesn't test for rugged conditions. There's a huge variety in for instance the quality of Prismatic cells themselves. Just having the prismatic form is no guarantee. It seems too that top racing solo sailors, pay a lot for their lithium batteries, and the reports I have read from such sailors, they say they have been using cylindrical cells in their Lithium batteries. Which brand though - I have no idea. I guess cylindricals are more fault tolerant.
Oh and another thing. There are now LIFO certified fire extinguishers. I reckon if I go LIFO, I'll put a battery powered smoke detector inside my lazerette just in case. My boat is small enough so that I'll hear it go off! And while I am trying to save weight - a LIFO fire extinguisher that is certified here in Australia, weighs 25 kg! More than most lithium batteries. I cannot win ...
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Melbourne Park;
What the heck is a "LIFO" battery? You mentioned it 11 times, so I assume it's not a typo. Just never heard of LIFO batteries. Googled it, nope, no results.
Did you perhaps mean Lithium Ion?
or LIPO (Lithium Phosphate)?
or LFP (nother name for Lithium Iron Phosphate)?
or LCO (Lithium Cobalt)?
or LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate)?
or LMO (Lithium Ion Manganese dioxide)?
or NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt)?
or LTO (Lithium Titanium Oxide)?
There are others, just nothing called LIFO . . . . .
I also searched Will Prowse' site, whom you quote. No mention of a LIFO battery type.
I'm trying to figure out what the point of your post is, but I'm totally guessing what battery you are talking about when you post a battery technology that the internet hasn't even heard of. If LIFO a new battery type that just came out or something?!?
Trying to figure out the post.
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05-03-2023, 12:36
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#57
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Jeanneau, Sunfast 3200, 32-33 feet.
Posts: 70
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Re: Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries
There are several acronyms used. Probably the most appropriate acronym for lithium iron phosphate is LiFePO4. It's often shortened to LIFO over here. I'm not sure why. Adding an F to LIPO just confuses thing. I guess LFPO would be better, but people like a vowel in their acronyms.
I should have said Lithium Iron Phosphate at the beginning.
While a more accurate acronym is the LFP one, it lacks a vowel, and its hard to say unless you just spell out the letters.
Incidentally a major insurer in Australia, says they will only insure properly fitted and inspected Lithium Phosphate batteries. I called them, and I said: " Do you mean Lithium Iron Phosphate", and they said no, they only insure Lithium Phosphate batteries. They don't insure Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. Yet there is no Lithium Phosphate battery that I know of.
The person also went away to confirm, because I said Lithium Phosphate I think they are being ingenuous, because the batteries people install in camping and boats if lithium derived, are Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. And its also confusing that a lithium Ion battery is different from a Lithium Iron (phosphate) battery, when Ion and Iron sound much the same.
My boat guys say Sodium-Ion will take over, and will be safer for boats. But they are still Blue Sky.
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