Cheap group 4D LiFePO drop in replacement batteries

[flightlead404]

Christ! This forum is practically unusable on an iPhone without ad block plus!

Anyway, Rod at Marine How To has excellent article on this very subject. I’ll be reading it again a few more times before any other action.

[Scubaseas]

Apologies, didn't mean to offend.

Yes indeed Rod is a great source but I'm sure he would advise you not to use drop in or cheap LFPs at that. He'll have you buy a Wakespeed regulator and at minimum an XT170 alternator. Putting new AGMS and upping your solar maybe an option for you? LFP is great for liveaboard house bank for me at least YMMV. The problem is they cost more than the batteries. They have somewhat different charge needs, especially from the engine alternator.

Even if your FP genset was working your battery charger may not have LFP profiles and if you leave your alternator as is and it's directly on the house bank you'll probably fry it in short order.

As far as absolute cheapest fix AGMS might be the ticket.

A gas genset like a Honda 3200I may not start your AC if you don't have a soft start on it. Lots of * and - between gas on deck and diesel inboard genset.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-272528-2.html

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

Thanks. Those were actually one of the brands I was looking at. I think there is probably only a few manufacturers and lots of different labels but thanks

See Will Prowse.

The BMS are pretty much all the same if you watch a lot of Prowse. If your windlass is off your start battery how much do you really pull off the House? If you have 2 house 4Ds at 200A max draw that's 400A. Even at 100A max how often do you pull over 200A off the house bank? Yes all the BMS look like the same ones in the Prowse videos.

The price jump in the LFPs seems to be when you add Bluetooth to the BMS. Most just the same prismatic cells. some use pouches (like Renogy and Dakota)
BlueTooth makes the battery ABYC compliant. The really cheap LFPs have no way to communicate with the cells.

Not saying you tow your boat with your windlass. My comments are meant for everyone, not just you if that makes sense.

I did speak with Rod about 2 years ago after had my brand new AGM house bank toasted by my boat sitter. He's got some valid points and I appreciate his website. If you follow his advice I'm sure it will be fine. Expensive though.

Two years ago I had a dead AGM house bank, Genset that needed injection pump fixed and some solar. Sound familiar?

I wound up going 400AH LFP house and separate 200AH LFP auto pilot and instruments battery. Had to change the alternator, regulator, add three DC to DC chargers, new solar controller and of course new MRBFs, bus bars, fuses, wiring etc. etc. etc.. I spoke at length with Rod at Compass Marine/Marinehowto about best way forward, LFP advantages and drawbacks. Also talked to the nice people at Balmar and a few other places. Be happy to share all I learned. Retired master mechanic, former repair shop owner of 48 years, former ABYC member who has been fixing boats for over 30 years. Your boat, do it your way.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

Have not. Link? I do have an equalization function on my master volt 12/50-3 charger but need shore power or to resurrect my generator and run it for hours and hours

You might look at the manual you got with the Lifeline batteries. Although to be completely fair Lifeline does call it a "conditioning" charge so that might be confusing you.

But if you haven't read (and followed) the manual, you really can't blame the batteries for the problems, can you?

Just e sure you pay closer attention to the manual that comes with the Li batteries, or expect the same result.

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

You might look at the manual you got with the Lifeline batteries. Although to be completely fair Lifeline does call it a "conditioning" charge so that might be confusing you.

But if you haven't read (and followed) the manual, you really can't blame the batteries for the problems, can you?

Just e sure you pay closer attention to the manual that comes with the Li batteries, or expect the same result.

Luckily LFPs rarely come with any kind of manual and the tech help line is useless.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

Have not. Link? I do have an equalization function on my master volt 12/50-3 charger but need shore power or to resurrect my generator and run it for hours and hours

Originally Posted by flightlead404

Nvm found in their manual. Not a special procedure, pretty standard. Will try if able but not something I’ve had much luck with in the past with other deeply discharged batteries.

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

You might look at the manual you got with the Lifeline batteries. Although to be completely fair Lifeline does call it a "conditioning" charge so that might be confusing you.
.

See you found instructions. I'd guess that's probably the first best thing to try...

-Chris

[flightlead404]

In doing some more research, my current charger (shore power or generator) is not Li compatible.

The first thing I need to check is windlass and bow thruster, if either of these are wired to house not start, and cannot be relocated to start, then LFP for house is immediately off the table I think without significant redesign which I’m not going to do on the hook.

If they are ok then I have some choices. My Epever Tracer 6415AN solar controller is Li compatible and Battleborn even says they work great and provides some configuration settings.

Since my alternator is wired directly to the AGM start battery I could simply disable the parallel charge circuit relay which would eliminate the alternator BMS load dump issue but also prevent me charging house from alternator. That is not a huge deal for me temporarily.

My bigger issue is the shore power charger. Right now it is wired with two outputs one to house and one to start. If I disconnect the connection from it to house, and then use a DC-DC charger from alternator to house then it will charge, albeit at a slower rate. A 30A DC-DC charger would be appropriate for my 80a alternator.

Is that right?

Then I would also have (slow) charging from the alternator and since the alternator is isolated to the AGM start battery I would eliminate need for things like the Balmar Alternator Protection Module and Victron Argoset buffer devices Rod mentions in his article.

Right?

Later of course I would properly engineer a new inverter/charger but unless I’m missing something the above would get me through a couple more months cursing, especially as solar conditions improve as we exit winter.

What am I getting wrong or have not thought of?

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

What am I getting wrong or have not thought of?

I think first, try conditioning current batteries.

Next, pinpoint why they're "trashed" and whether you have control over the "why."

Might just be a case of "don't do that again" and if so, all that other stuff could be worth considering but at your leisure. Or might not be worth the effort, not necessary at all...

-Chris

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

I believe I have trashed my 3yr old Lifeline 210 AHr group 4D AGM batteries through a series of deep discharges. They don’t really charge to the full voltage and rapidly discharge.

To replace these like for like is going to be around $1,600 or so. I can find quite a selection of similar AHr 4D LiFePO batteries for the same or slightly more $ on Amazon and other sources.

What’s the catch here?

Are they really the right technology or the technology they claim to be?
Are they a really a drop in replacement for my AGM batteries?
Do they really provide the capacity they claim?

If so, being able to go below 50% SOC is a huge benefit for me.

Thoughts? Recommendations for approach or products?

(On the hook in the Key West area trying to avoid getting a slip)

I recommend you read Rod Collins' excellent article on LFP drop in batteries:
https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-life...ated-consumer/

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

"...
Since my alternator is wired directly to the AGM start battery I could simply disable the parallel charge circuit relay which would eliminate the alternator BMS load dump issue but also prevent me charging house from alternator. That is not a huge deal for me temporarily.

My bigger issue is the shore power charger. Right now it is wired with two outputs one to house and one to start. If I disconnect the connection from it to house, and then use a DC-DC charger from alternator to house then it will charge, albeit at a slower rate. A 30A DC-DC charger would be appropriate for my 80a alternator.

Is that right?

Then I would also have (slow) charging from the alternator and since the alternator is isolated to the AGM start battery I would eliminate need for things like the Balmar Alternator Protection Module and Victron Argoset buffer devices Rod mentions in his article.

Right?

Later of course I would properly engineer a new inverter/charger but unless I’m missing something the above would get me through a couple more months cursing, especially as solar conditions improve as we exit winter.

What am I getting wrong or have not thought of?

Sounds right to me. But at 30A slow charging indeed.

Alternator protection i.e. Balmar AP-12 is cheap insurance. Your choice. You really want temperature protection of the alternator. You can make the alternator externally regulated easily but then you need a regulator and temp sensor. 30A continuous output might be fine. Might not. You'll have to try it to see. Theory is sound.

Why not wire shore power charger to the house bank and use a DC to DC or relay for the start battery? How much really do you need to put back into the starter or thruster batteries, especially when you are running the engine when using them?

You may want to consider a separate AGM starting battery or whatever chemistry your engine start battery is in the bow for the windlass and bow thruster. I did this and zero regrets.

If you want fast charging via engine you need to upgrade your alternator and regulator and possibly your engine pulleys too. Taking advantage of LiFePo4 capability to be quickly charged is expensive but can be wonderful.

Your scenario is relying on the solar to do most of the heavy lifting, yes? Do you have enough solar to meet your demand?

[Scubaseas]

Anyone who uses Marinehowto,com should be aware that Rod Collins had a stroke and is no longer able to make a living. Please don't be cheap sailors and do PAY HIM for the excellent information he gives us. Make a donation please.

[Captain Bill]

I feel for you about the Lifelines. My last set only lasted 3 years as well after the two previous sets last 7 years each. I guess like most things these days quality has gone down and the price up.



I went the cheap LiFePO4 direction about a year ago. I replaced my 2 4D Lifelines with 3 100ah Chins. The ones I bought did not have the bluetooth enabled BMS. I replaced my solar controller, put in a DC-DC charger and rerouted my alternators to the start bank. I left my start bank AGMs. I had previously replaced my inverter and charger with a single inverter charger that had a lithium profile. I get 240ah usable from the new batteries versus 210 from the Lifelines. The cost of doing that was essentially a break even with buying the two new lifelines. I left in March last year for a cruise through the Keys and up to Maine and back in late October. I have had absolutely no issues at all with the batteries and absolutely love them. They charge amazingly fast. I've actually never gotten them down to 20%. I do run my windlass off of the lithium bank. The Chins BMSs supplied are rated to 285a for 5 seconds and 200 for 30 seconds. That may have changed with the latest batteries from them as they no longer advertise the 285a rating. In any case, I don't typically run my windlass hard, but either motor up to the anchor and use the engine to break it out with the chain locked down or use a the weight of the chain to move the boat forward if the engine isn't running. That being said I snagged a large piece of towing cable in Norfolk harbor and put a whole lot of strain on the windlass bringing it up. The batteries never missed a beat. My windlass runs through a 135a breaker so any high amp draw for any length of time is going to trip that breaker anyway. I also have a 300a fuse between the battery bank and anything else so the I think the idea that I'm going to overload the BMSs is kind of meaningless. I suppose if two of the BMSs tripped off line and only one was trying to carry the load then there would be a problem, then it would trip too. I have Electric heads, fresh water pumps, davits, winches, etc., in other words with lots of motors that have in-rush currents and never had a problem. Chins recommends that you should charge them at .5c or less, but since I almost never have all my charging systems running at once I never had an issue with this.



I don't know how these will hold up in the long run, but they are doing fine at a year. If they last 3 years I'll be break even with the Lifelines. I seldom get the batteries below 50% so I'm not even stressing their advertised cycling capacity. If they last 10 years they will probably outlast me.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

I think first, try conditioning current batteries.

Next, pinpoint why they're "trashed" and whether you have control over the "why."

Might just be a case of "don't do that again" and if so, all that other stuff could be worth considering but at your leisure. Or might not be worth the effort, not necessary at all...

-Chris

They are trashed I think because of several issues. First I had a shore power outage over the summer while I was away from the boat which had the batteries cycled down to about 30% SOC

Second my Victron battery monitor for some reason resets to 100% SOC under certain conditions when it’s not near 100% (mom research needed on why) and since I was relying on the SOC display rather than voltage (that’s a me issue) I ran them way low.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

They are trashed I think because of several issues. First I had a shore power outage over the summer while I was away from the boat which had the batteries cycled down to about 30% SOC

Second my Victron battery monitor for some reason resets to 100% SOC under certain conditions when it’s not near 100% (mom research needed on why) and since I was relying on the SOC display rather than voltage (that’s a me issue) I ran them way low.

Both of those sound fixable. If your current batteries respond to conditioning (30% isn't as bad as 0%) then you might be good to go for quite a while.

If they don't respond to conditioning, new ones, same batteries, might be line of least resistance (cost, brainpower, etc.)... and don't do those fixable things again.

IOW, maybe no leaping through extraordinary hoops required.

-Chris

[Jweyndling]

I have had AMpere Time 200Ah LePOFe batteries running on my boat for a couple of years now and they seem to holding up really well. If they do fail, you can can replace them and still have spent less than buying "brand name" ones like Battle Born.