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Old 07-07-2021, 19:28   #1
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Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

Hi all,

The following is posted on behalf of cruising friends who have not yet come to realise the joy of being CF members. I've been helping them from time to time, but this one is way over my head, hoping some of you might be able to tell us what is going on

Their email follows:


Hey Matt,

Here is the crux of the issue and the changes that happened to our system.

The set up we have is a deregulated Valeo 60 amp alternator on a Nanni 4.000 HE diesel engine and a Balmar-614 external regulator with a 550Ah sealed lead acid house bank (5 x Exide MSDP31) and a 90Ah starting battery (Exide MSDP27). The house and starting bank are linked by a BEP DVSR, that engages at 13.4v and disengages at 12.8v. We have two 135W solar panels that each have a Victron BlueSolar MPPT 75/10. The alternator runs between 55-65 degrees celsius, and the battery bank is always around 24 degrees celsius. The Balmar MC614 is NOT mounted in the engine bay, it is mounted in a seperate cool area.

Our issue is that with our old external regulator set up (a home made four diode switch which died) we would on average, get 45 amps out of our alternator at 1500 revs with low battery charge. The maximum we ever saw was 52 amps. Since installing the Balmar MC-614 external regulator we generally only get mid-30 amps at 1500 revs even with discharged batteries, BUT, if we increase the revs to 1900 revs we can get another 6 or 7 amps produced by the alternator. Also, we have noticed when the alternator is outputting 35 amps and the battery bank is in the 13 volt range, if we turn on the fridge (Ozefrige 12v aircooled system that draws about 6-7 amps) the Balmar regulator does not regulate for this, i.e. the output of the alternator will drop from 35 amps to 28 amps. BUT if the alternator is putting out 20 amps and the battery bank is in the 14 volt range and we turn on the fridge, the Balmar regulator seems to compensate for this and keeps the same alternator output.

The Valeo alternator previously had negative field regulation, we got this changed (by an auto-electrician that specialises in alternators and starter motors) so that it regulates the positive field as this is required to be compatible with the Balmar MC-614. Prior to changing the field regulation, the auto-electrician bench tested the alternator and measured 60 amps from it.

We spoke to Exide batteries and they advised us that Bulk and Absorption voltage for our batteries is 14.8v and is 13.5v for float.

We have programmed the Balmar as in the table below. The belt manager is not on.

Display Settings Description
dLc 10 sec Start Delay Programming
AHL 15.5v Set High Voltage Limit
CL 14.8v Battery Temp Voltage Compensation Limit
bu (bv) 14.8v Bulk Voltage Limit
b1c left as default Minimum Bulk Voltage Duration
Au (Av) 14.8v Absorption Voltage Limit
A1c 120 mins Minimum Absorption Voltage Duration
** (Fv) 13.5v Float Voltage Limit
F1c left as default Min Float Voltage Duration
ALL 12.3v Low Voltage Alarm for Dash Lamp
FbA left as default Field Threshold for Bv to Av Transition
FFL left as default Field Threshold for Av to Fv Transition
AL1 left as default Max Alternator Temperature
b1L left as default Battery Over Temp Limit
SLP 8.3 Battery Temp Compensation Slope

Our question is, why are we not getting as many amps out of the alternator at 1500 revs than we used to when our batteries are in low SOC?

Is the Balmar not 'exciting' the alternator enough (given the regulator allows more amps with increased revs)?

Or could changing the alternator from negative to positive regulated have affected the alternator efficiency?


Email ends.

So, any ideas?
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Old 07-07-2021, 21:12   #2
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

What is the bel set to.

Based on what I read about the fridge amps I bet they are looking at a battery monitor net amps and not Actual alternator amps. With a clamp meter. They need to measure actual alt amps. What I read is all normal if looking at a battery monitor. So is the lower amps.

Measure the field voltage (blue wire). When it’s in bulk. And read the bv and cv from the screen.

When bv is less then cv that alt should be putting out 60-65a. On the alt wire.
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Old 07-07-2021, 21:35   #3
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
What is the bel set to.

Based on what I read about the fridge amps I bet they are looking at a battery monitor net amps and not Actual alternator amps. With a clamp meter. They need to measure actual alt amps. What I read is all normal if looking at a battery monitor. So is the lower amps.

Measure the field voltage (blue wire). When it’s in bulk. And read the bv and cv from the screen.

When bv is less then cv that alt should be putting out 60-65a. On the alt wire.


Thanks, but if you read carefully you’ll see that, regardless of exactly where their battery monitor is placed, something has changed with the change to the Balmar regulator.
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Old 07-07-2021, 22:00   #4
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

Well, the simple test is to “full field” the alternator. Basically connect the alternator field input directly to the battery, bypassing the 614. If you get full output then you know the problem is in the regulator/settings, if you don’t get full output the problem is likely on the alternator/wiring side.

There is some risk, ideally I would do this with a rheostat in the field circuit so I can dial up (and back down) the field current. Otherwise you basically slam the alternator to full output, and then cut it from full to zero when removing the field current. That’s been done many, many times but it never feels right to me. OTOH, in a remote anchorage with no access to anything else it makes for a very easy test.

Also best done with some level of charge needed by the batteries so the voltage doesn’t rise too fast and possibly damage something else.
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Old 07-07-2021, 22:45   #5
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

It has been many years since I programmed my 614 regulator. I know part of the program is the belt manager that can throttle the output; maybe that has been set a bit low?
The other reason the output can be reduced is a high temperature, but in the initial email I see no issue with that.
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Old 08-07-2021, 03:52   #6
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
Well, the simple test is to “full field” the alternator. Basically connect the alternator field input directly to the battery, bypassing the 614. If you get full output then you know the problem is in the regulator/settings, if you don’t get full output the problem is likely on the alternator/wiring side.

There is some risk, ideally I would do this with a rheostat in the field circuit so I can dial up (and back down) the field current. Otherwise you basically slam the alternator to full output, and then cut it from full to zero when removing the field current. That’s been done many, many times but it never feels right to me. OTOH, in a remote anchorage with no access to anything else it makes for a very easy test.

Also best done with some level of charge needed by the batteries so the voltage doesn’t rise too fast and possibly damage something else.


I like this approach. I’ll see if they feel comfortable trying it.
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Old 08-07-2021, 03:54   #7
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

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Originally Posted by HankOnthewater View Post
It has been many years since I programmed my 614 regulator. I know part of the program is the belt manager that can throttle the output; maybe that has been set a bit low?

The other reason the output can be reduced is a high temperature, but in the initial email I see no issue with that.


Good call, but they’ve turned the belt manager off.

(They did get me wondering if there was a significant difference between conventional V belts and cogged V belts though.)
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Old 08-07-2021, 10:14   #8
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

Following. Our (standard) single eng alternator is still regulated by the BI regulator, but we're looking seriously at adding an external reg.
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Old 08-07-2021, 10:31   #9
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Thanks, but if you read carefully you’ll see that, regardless of exactly where their battery monitor is placed, something has changed with the change to the Balmar regulator.

No it does not.


The max 35a

The current dropping with fridge load in bulk mode.

Abd the current staying the same with fridge load in absorb mode.

Are 3 of those all totally normally results if reading a battery monitor (net battery amps) instead of the alt cable. And none would be normal if reading the alt cable So I’m guessing that is what they are doing.
.

They need a dc clamp meter on the actual alternator wire.
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Old 08-07-2021, 10:57   #10
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
No it does not.


The max 35a

The current dropping with fridge load in bulk mode.

Abd the current staying the same with fridge load in absorb mode.

Are 3 of those all totally normally results if reading a battery monitor (net battery amps) instead of the alt cable. And none would be normal if reading the alt cable So I’m guessing that is what they are doing.
.

They need a dc clamp meter on the actual alternator wire.

Or just turn the "consumers" of power OFF when they are testing. The "net" becomes the AO. A lot easier if they don't have a DC clamp meter, actually required.
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Old 08-07-2021, 12:34   #11
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

To compare the old setup to the new, you would need voltage measurements at the output of the alternator with the old setup and again with the new, using the same voltmeter and grounding point for the negative lead and with the batteries in the same state of charge. If the old regulator was set to only a couple tenths of a volt higher than the 614 or your batteries are in a different condition then your battery charge current would probably be significantly different at the same RPM.

The Balmar 614, like it's predecessor the 612 I have, uses a dumb time limit for absorption voltage. Depending on when you made measurements, you could have been in absorption mode or float mode, which makes a huge difference in charge current. BTW your friend will probably want to program that setting to more than the factory default of 18 minutes. I use 2 hours on my boat, and if I need more time I switch off the ignition for a few minutes (leaving the diesel running) and then switch back on to reset the timer.
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Old 08-07-2021, 22:19   #12
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Or just turn the "consumers" of power OFF when they are testing. The "net" becomes the AO. A lot easier if they don't have a DC clamp meter, actually required.
Not quite with a vsr to engine battery but close. As the engine battery will be taking some.
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Old 09-07-2021, 02:54   #13
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Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

It seems we are getting a bit distracted by the extra info in the original email.

Yes, it would be nice to isolate everything and be sure we are measuring JUST what the alternator is putting out, however, in the absence of that perfect scenario, we can see the main problem described clearly in the following paragraph:

“Our issue is that with our old external regulator set up (a home made four diode switch which died) we would on average, get 45 amps out of our alternator at 1500 revs with low battery charge. The maximum we ever saw was 52 amps. Since installing the Balmar MC-614 external regulator we generally only get mid-30 amps at 1500 revs even with discharged batteries, BUT, if we increase the revs to 1900 revs we can get another 6 or 7 amps produced by the alternator.”

Some key words here are “on average” and “since installing the Balmar ... we generally only get mid-30s”.

So we have a boat that knows the behaviour of their system very well, well enough to describe the average behaviour, and have noticed a very significant drop in performance since changing to the Balmar (and swapping the field polarity.)

Nothing else was changed and there is a big enough drop in output to safely ignore random boat loads for now. We are talking AVERAGES after all.

Personally, I like the full field excitation idea from Dsanduril, I just need to convince them they probably won’t disappear in a shower of sparks if they try it. They are a nice couple and it’s a pretty boat, it would be a shame if they did.
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Old 09-07-2021, 03:10   #14
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

That is why i said to measure the field voltage. If it’s 12v+ already you should not need to do that test.

Every alt I have modified to external reg and hooked up to a 614 reg has put out more then the sticker amps. By 10 %. You should be seeing 60-65a on that alt if it is good.
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Old 09-07-2021, 03:17   #15
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Re: Charging problems after changes made to accommodate a Balmar regulator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
It seems we are getting a bit distracted by the extra info in the original email.

Yes, it would be nice to isolate everything and be sure we are measuring JUST what the alternator is putting out, however, in the absence of that perfect scenario, we can see the main problem described clearly in the following paragraph:

“Our issue is that with our old external regulator set up (a home made four diode switch which died) we would on average, get 45 amps out of our alternator at 1500 revs with low battery charge. The maximum we ever saw was 52 amps. Since installing the Balmar MC-614 external regulator we generally only get mid-30 amps at 1500 revs even with discharged batteries, BUT, if we increase the revs to 1900 revs we can get another 6 or 7 amps produced by the alternator.”

Some key words here are “on average” and “since installing the Balmar ... we generally only get mid-30s”.

So we have a boat that knows the behaviour of their system very well, well enough to describe the average behaviour, and have noticed a very significant drop in performance since changing to the Balmar (and swapping the field polarity.)

Nothing else was changed and there is a big enough drop in output to safely ignore random boat loads for now. We are talking AVERAGES after all.

Personally, I like the full field excitation idea from Dsanduril, I just need to convince them they probably won’t disappear in a shower of sparks if they try it. They are a nice couple and it’s a pretty boat, it would be a shame if they did.
The problem as I see it, you can't possibly compare the old external regulator set up (a home made four diode switch) with a Balmar MC-614.

Regulators regulate voltage, not current. So to make a meaningful comparison you would need to know what was the voltage the old set up was regulating to.

As an example, if the MC-614 was regulating to say 14.2 V, then 'x' current would flow however if the old set was set to say 14.8 V, then under the same rpm and SOC, the current could possibly be '2x'.

Clearly the four diode switch switch intended to vary the regulated voltage but what was those set points?
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