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Old 09-04-2021, 03:25   #16
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Yes, it’s going to be a lot to swallow. In the four years we’ve had the boat leading up to our departure we’ll have spent about 1/3 of our purchase price in maintenance and upgrades. This electrical system upgrade is a relatively small part of that.

We have an initial 10 year cruising plan and are willing to spend some of our capital while we are still working to bring much of the boat’s systems up to current spec. We’ve done the same with replacing and upgrading most of the running and static rigging, mechanical systems, and new white sails.

.......
Yep, it's a lot less painful when you are still working. Not exactly free funny money, but not capital. We've been cruising 10 years now and the upkeep/renew/fix-it costs just keep on coming. Crossing oceans and full time live aboard puts a lot of wear on your gear. For example, our buddy boat friends on an Outremer 51 just blew up a traveler block the other day.
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Old 09-04-2021, 03:35   #17
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

How much Solar do you have? I am also upgrading to Lithium and looked at the induction cook tops, but they pull a massive amount of power (we are a family of 4) - I only have 1KW of solar and figured I'd end up running the genny on a regular basis if I went that route. I can cover the hot water heater at around 135 amps @ 12v and all other items, but cooking was beyond me I think, unless you have some better electric cooking options?
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Old 09-04-2021, 05:37   #18
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

UFO, there was a recent thread about Induction Hobs and the figures weren't as bad as first thought. For a start you aren't cooking roast dinners, but pan top simple meals which tend to be quicker plus the hob actually cycles on and off like a fridge or our slow cooker. That is rated for 110w so 10A, but actually only uses 5A with a 50% duty.

fxykty, I feel your pain. I am on day 4 of building a plywood shelf beneath the saloon seats to give a level surface for the LFP. How difficult can that be? well for a start our bilge keel bolts are also there and they needed cleaning de-rusting and then painting. Next glass in some noggins on the floors ready for the batteries. Batteries turn up and the their idea of LxWxH doesn't quite match mine. Never mind, a bit of work with a wood chisel and we can cut down the noggins to fit the batteries in the orientation I want. Then the big task, move the wiring so the house batteries are no longer in the engine compartment.

Overall aim? a small LFP bank so we can run a hairdryer, electric hob or kettle etc. Most cooking will remain gas, but nice to have options and avoid single points of failure.

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Old 05-05-2021, 02:55   #19
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

Well, this job is certainly taking a while. Partly because I work full time so only can take a bit of time off during the week and I’m trying to keep professional labour costs down, and secondly because this is turning into a major refit and not just a battery change.

I’ll catch up on the finances in the next post - total budget is now doubled due to the extra works, sigh.

Jobs completed:
- replaced all AC wiring (the original Euro wiring was plain copper strand - now it’s tinned), added three additional AC outlets in starboard hull and salon, removed the separate circuit for the washing machine and put it on the port hull circuit, new AC circuit breaker box, new electric galley wiring for two 16A (220V) outlets, installed induction hob, replaced existing shore power system with new outlet, double pole RCBO, 32A galvanic isolator, and new cable all the way to the Quattro, new generator charge output cable to Quattro (previously it ran to a ship/shore switch in the port engine bay, that switch is gone and the generator and shore power have their own wires to the Quattro)
- replaced all DC charge and load distribution cables (the original Euro wiring is bare copper strand and generally a size or two too small), ran 2x 120mm^2 cables to the port engine room (previously 70mm^2) - these cables will carry the alternators’ and wind generator charge outputs from the port engine bay to the salon, and provide the emergency power in case of house battery cut off, ran 2x 70mm^2 cables between the two engine bays (previously 50mm^2) to bring the starboard alternator charge output to the bus in the port engine bay. Also used to emergency parallel the two engine start batteries. Replaced almost all 35mm^2 cables with 50mm^2 cables in the engine bays, ran a new pair of 50mm^2 cables to the starboard aft cabin to provide a power bus for the water maker and diesel hydronic heater (previously separate 35mm^2 cables to each), replaced the autopilot 8mm^2 cables with 12mm^2 due to finding a couple of hot spots between the controller and the hydraulic pump (over 20m), moved solar regulator from port engine bay to salon battery area, new cables to carry the ~100V of solar output from engine bay to salon, added a 30A fuse in the port engine bay, removed generator start battery and lead new 50mm^2 cables to start from the port engine battery
- installed a Balmar DuoCharger in each engine bay - these will be used to charge the engine start batteries from the house battery (all charge sources go to the positive charge bus and the house battery)
- added a 50A contactor to the wind generator output, had lower voltage output programmed into the Superwind charge regulator (13.9V, previously 14.4V), replaced the stop switch, replaced the three blades
- replaced the Desallator D60 dual 70cm membranes with a single 120cm membrane, replaced non-working flow meter with new, replaced all high pressure hoses
- removed non-working Eberspacher D10 diesel hydronic heater and bought a new Webasto diesel hydronic (not installed yet)
- installed a UV and double filter system on the output of the pressure pump. The UV light is on its own switch and I expect we’ll only run it when we’re using dodgy water
- replaced the water pump with new one, keeping the previous one as a hot spare
- replaced all 13mm cold water pressure hoses from tanks to pump, accumulator and filters as far as the distribution manifold, replaced all 19mm vent hoses and added a bug filter, replaced all 32mm filler pipes. The port water tank is ready to be reinstalled once we’ve finished with the cable runs for the port hull into the salon
- designed and installed all the cables, positive charge, positive load, and negative load bus bars, main fuse, isolation switch, emergency power switch, smart shunt with BMS board in the house battery area
- installed the Quattro mounting panel on the floor of the compartment (not enough height under the salon seating to mount it vertically, so mounting it horizontally)

Induction hob
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New AC distribution panel
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The mess (house battery location is under the salon seat to the right of the chart table)
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Old 05-05-2021, 23:45   #20
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

Good progress this past week, with my electrician present almost the entire time to make all the final connections. Installed the 7” touchscreen that will be used with the Cerbo as well as the BMS’s remote status panel.

Wire pulling and replacement is almost done!! After some thought, we are leaving the autopilot 12mm^2 cables in place just for on/off switching via a relay and will be leading new 16mm^2 cables from the port engine bay - just a 3m run instead of 10m. The autopilot to hydraulic pump cable will also go to 16mm^2. According to the manual our Evolution 400 can draw up to 30A continuous, so the larger cables and shorter run should help.

It’s very satisfying to be finally putting wire run covers back on, though in a few cases we’re over stuffed and having to be creative to get the covers to snap back on.

Overhauled our windlass and replaced the motor (1700W now instead of the original 1500W). While the motor was off we ran new cables - same size 50mm^2 for the 2.5m run from the regulator, which now has just a 1.5m run to the positive discharge bus instead of the previous 12m run to the port engine start battery. When we got the boat the regulator was wired to the house bank and had the charming habit of blanking out our instruments when running the windlass, hence the cable run to an engine start battery.

Port water tank going into its new home under the chart table (where the previous house bank was). We’ll need to remove about half the wiring in the new battery compartment to fit the tank before sliding it over. Once that’s done we can install the Quattro, Cerbo and BMS. Then we’ll install and secure the battery, make connections, and spark things up. Hopefully by the end of next week.
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Old 06-05-2021, 01:36   #21
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Good progress this past week, with my electrician present almost the entire time to make all the final connections. Installed the 7” touchscreen that will be used with the Cerbo as well as the BMS’s remote status panel.

Wire pulling and replacement is almost done!! After some thought, we are leaving the autopilot 12mm^2 cables in place just for on/off switching via a relay and will be leading new 16mm^2 cables from the port engine bay - just a 3m run instead of 10m. The autopilot to hydraulic pump cable will also go to 16mm^2. According to the manual our Evolution 400 can draw up to 30A continuous, so the larger cables and shorter run should help.

It’s very satisfying to be finally putting wire run covers back on, though in a few cases we’re over stuffed and having to be creative to get the covers to snap back on.

Overhauled our windlass and replaced the motor (1700W now instead of the original 1500W). While the motor was off we ran new cables - same size 50mm^2 for the 2.5m run from the regulator, which now has just a 1.5m run to the positive discharge bus instead of the previous 12m run to the port engine start battery. When we got the boat the regulator was wired to the house bank and had the charming habit of blanking out our instruments when running the windlass, hence the cable run to an engine start battery.

Port water tank going into its new home under the chart table (where the previous house bank was). We’ll need to remove about half the wiring in the new battery compartment to fit the tank before sliding it over. Once that’s done we can install the Quattro, Cerbo and BMS. Then we’ll install and secure the battery, make connections, and spark things up. Hopefully by the end of next week.

Lithiumm batteries have caughfire in planes and and cars and everything else with a Lithium battery including phones.

Lithium-ion batteries commonly used in consumer electronics are notorious for bursting into flame when damaged or improperly packaged. ... "If the battery is damaged and the plastic layer fails, the electrodes can come into contact and cause the battery's liquid electrolyte to catch fire
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Old 06-05-2021, 03:41   #22
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

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Originally Posted by parachute View Post
Lithiumm batteries have caughfire in planes and and cars and everything else with a Lithium battery including phones.

Lithium-ion batteries commonly used in consumer electronics are notorious for bursting into flame when damaged or improperly packaged. ... "If the battery is damaged and the plastic layer fails, the electrodes can come into contact and cause the battery's liquid electrolyte to catch fire


1. How many times do you need to post this same warning?

2. You do realize that there are different battery chemistries that contain lithium? Not all burst into flames when damaged.
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Old 08-05-2021, 23:20   #23
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

Pictures as we’re starting to put the boat back together. Only one more big install remains (replacing the hydronic diesel heater) and of course the batteries still need to be put in place, but after all the work so far that and the complex start up sequence that seems trivial.

Port water tank in its new home under the chart table - that was the original location of the previous house bank, shunt, inverter and isolation and emergency parallel switches.
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The new fresh water lines (those that we could access in the salon - not the distribution lines), including new UV and double sediment and carbon filters (we’ve got a switch on the light and will only run it with dodgy water). The filter assembly sits where the previous charger was, but because the filter elements reach across the cable run we’ve had to suspend the cables under the cable run. Oh well. We have a 3-way valve (red handle) to pick which tank to pull water from.
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Tao.Performance BMS and Cerbo GX mounted on the front wall of the salon seat compartment. Some of the easy connections done and still to do all the HVC and LVC warnings and actions. Cables all run, so just need the crimps and terminals.
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All the cabling and components on the back wall of the salon seat compartment, plus MPPT controller for our davits panels on the side and the Quattro on the floor. Along the top is the positive feed from the batteries (2x 120mm^2 cables), 600A ANL fuse, and 600A isolation switch, then back left to the positive contactors bus. One 350A contactor serves the positive charge bus (alternators, wind and solar) and the other 600A contactor serves the positive discharge bus. The negative feed from the batteries (also 2x 120mm^2 cables) comes in from the right and down to the shunt, then left to the negative bus bar. 4x 120mm^2 cables feed the Quattro from the bus bars, plus generator and shore power.
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Old 17-05-2021, 15:55   #24
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Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

Financial update mid May

$160 - net amount for selling the 28l oven and buying the 22l Breville Smart Oven Pro
$6596.05 - total so far for cables, terminals, circuit breakers, fuses, switches, etc, basically all the other smaller bits needed to connect and secure the installation
$5557.50 - labour for electrician and helper to end of April
$101.27 - backup camping stove that can burn petrol, in case our inverter craps out
-$459.43 - selling removed gear and old wiring to scrap metal dealer

Running total: $26,410.30

That’s for the electrical upgrade and installation to the end of April.

Note that this work has included replacing ALL of the AC wiring, switches, distribution board and outlets on the boat, as well as installing three main bus bars (+ve charge and discharge, and -ve), replacing and upgrading all the big DC cables for charge sources and major consumers. Our boat has had 12 years of offshore work, combined with inadequate Euro standards of 18 years ago, so this upgrade work is necessary. On a boat with adequate electrical systems much of this upgrade work would not be required.

Mostly labour remaining and hopefully done by end of May.

We’re also doing a major refit of several other systems, which I’ve separated out to keep things a bit more clear.

Watermaker upgrade (new higher capacity membrane, new control panel, new hoses, new electrical feed): $4341.95 parts and labour

Diesel heater replacement (Eberspacher 10KW hydronic heater was not installed properly and failed prematurely, cannot be repaired, so new Webasto 9.5KW hydronic heater and new installation): $7482.50 parts and labour

Plumbing upgrades (replaced all inlet, breather and water distribution pipes, and the pressure pump, and added whole house UV and sediment/carbon filtration system): $1166.65 parts (all own labour)

Shore power replacement/upgrade (replaced all fittings and added 32A Galvanic Isolator): $1806.00 parts and labour

Nav equipment upgrades (new Axiom+ MFD and remote keypad, new Simrad RV40 VHF/AIS): $5690.60 parts (all own labour), including $750 credit for selling old MFD, AIS and VHF

Running total #2: $20,487.70
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Old 27-05-2021, 22:54   #25
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

Almost done!
- Battery installed and BMS and shunt wires connected
- BMS high voltage cutoff (HVC) and HVC Warning (HVCW) relays and corresponding low voltage cutoff and warning installed and working. For the alternators we took Balmar’s advice and are cutting the ignition feed to the regulator rather than interrupting the field current. This shuts down the alternator normally and more importantly on next start up there is not field spike, just the normal startup procedure. Anyone else done this?
- VE SmartShunt, Cerbo, Quattro and SmartSolar all connected on a VRM network and to Internet via the Cerbo connected to our router. Remote firmware and configuration is very cool
- Balmar DDCs installed and connected - charging is working
- Water maker upgrade performing well - slightly more production and nearly 35% fewer amps
- Webasto hydronic heater working well - faster startup and quieter than the previous Eberspacher
- All AC equipment working well from the get go, including new shore power and existing generator
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Some initial observations:
- shore power and generator have doubled their output relative to the previous AGM bank (even though capacities similar FW now 700Ah vs then 660Ah). Does this mean the generator is working harder?
- virtually no voltage drop when using consumers like the windlass or AC appliances - 13.3V vs 13.5V with 250A used
- windlass is working faster and with less strain, even with a 20kg heavier anchor
- water boils twice as fast on the induction hob vs an electric kettle, but used 20% more power to do that
- Cerbo likes to display in Watts and I haven’t figured out how to display the battery’s Ah
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- BMS and SmartShunt don’t agree with each other right now, but we haven’t even had a full cycle yet so no worries I think

And all the usual issues with a wide-ranging refit like this
- assorted water leaks in the fresh water filter connections and the water maker flow meter connections - all new bits
- one interior light fitting has no power
- one DC distribution board lost its power due to its negative wire getting cut
- starboard ignition was getting power from the house! Cut that baby off pronto
- generic 7” touch displays fine but no touch without inserting some code into the Cerbo. How does one open a terminal window on the Cerbo to make those changes? If not possible then I’ll get the Raymarine adapter and put the data on the MFD
- new openings needed in seat backs to access different locations of key equipment
- mounted the Cerbo behind the batteries, sigh. Hopefully won’t need to add any of the bottom connections other than one CAN BUS
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Old 25-07-2021, 16:09   #26
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

Commissioning update after two months of liveaboard use, no shore power, purely winter sun and diesel generator.

Total costs for the battery upgrade alone with final invoices NZD 39,632.57

Total costs for the other work NZD 24,487.70

Grand total NZD 64,120.27. And to think that my original budget a year ago was NZD 20,000! (though it did not count the additional stuff)

Plus a few hundred dollars so far as we work through remaining issues.

- using our generator throttled to 75% of its rated continuous power allows us to charge approximately 20% per hour. We need to charge for 3 hours every second day. More solar (we plan to double our current 1000W) and summer insolation will help reduce that. We had considered a larger bank, but all that would have done is required more charging a bit less often. I’m not sure about that tradeoff.

- we moved the Cerbo and BMS out from behind the batteries (what were we thinking?) and mounted them onto the new side board that is securing the port water tank. The relays are now easily accessible.
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- we had to separate the one high voltage cutoff warning relay that was originally going to both the Quattro (Aux 1 input) and to the solar regulator (remote On/Off) as the Quattro input seemed to decrease the voltage in the relay to below 3V needed by the solar regulator remote. Putting them on separate relays solved the problem.

- we purchased the TAO BMS monitor to provide us with detailed battery information and CAN bus connectivity to the Cerbo. https://www.taoperf.com/shop/tbms-monitor/

This is the general information screen. If any of the relays are active it would highlight the active relays.
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This is the cells screen. If there was cell voltage balancing that would show on this screen
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- one of the cells, the primary negative one, shows a much lower internal resistance from the other cells. In addition, after just two months of use the internal resistances of the other three cells have almost doubled. The monitor is showing a decreased state of health (SOH) because of this. These are things we need to investigate. Note that if our BMS didn’t report at cell level then we would have no idea of these potential problems

- we have connected the TAO monitor the Cerbo via CAN bus. The Cerbo is receiving the CAN messages without errors but is not otherwise recognising the BMS on the CAN network. I expect this is a Victron Energy configuration issue. We are meeting with our system designer and the developer of the TAO BMS later this week for help with the Victron Energy configuration and to help diagnose the battery cell issues.

- we got rid of the touchscreen for the Cerbo and view that through the remote console on phones/tablets/computers or via the Raymarine Victron Energy app. The only time we really need the remote console is to turn off the charger for the last five minutes of generator run to give it a cool down - for some reason the VE app and the Quattro only have switch options for ON, OFF and Charger only. They are missing the Inverter only option, which is available only in the Remote Console.
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Old 25-07-2021, 16:34   #27
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

Congratulations, this looks like the cleanest installation I've seen.
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Old 25-07-2021, 17:46   #28
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

A bit late perhaps but you might find some gems here. Good discussion

https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/
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Old 25-07-2021, 18:14   #29
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Commissioning update after two months of liveaboard use, no shore power, purely winter sun and diesel generator.

Total costs for the battery upgrade alone with final invoices NZD 39,632.57

Total costs for the other work NZD 24,487.70

Grand total NZD 64,120.27. And to think that my original budget a year ago was NZD 20,000! (though it did not count the additional stuff)
.
OMFG and here is me umming and ahhing over $4 to $7 grand worth of batts
Starting this one at page one.

Add: oh, ok, I see you started again from scratch.
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Old 25-07-2021, 19:51   #30
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Re: Changing house bank from AGM to Lithium on an older Outremer 55

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
after just two months of use the internal resistances of the other three cells have almost doubled. The monitor is showing a decreased state of health (SOH) because of this.
Yes this a challenge with internal resistance when measured by a BMS in live conditions (not in a lab where all parameters can be controlled and using the proper equipment).
The internal resistance of a lithium cell is not constant, nor does it vary in a linear fashion in relation to the state of charge. I attach a graphs to give a rough idea on how cell internal resistance varies in relation to state of charge. Of course measures for cells from different capacity / manufacturers will vary, but it is the general idea.
study done by D. Anséan in 2013 titled "DC internal resistance during charge: analysis and study on LiFePO 4 batteries"



"In general, the IR evolution with the SOC follows a “U” shape; the highest IR values are both shown at the lowest and highest SOC states. Discrepancies are also more significant at the SOC extremes: that is where both VCD and USABC methods are the least precise. However, in the midrange (25% to 75% SOC), the values remain somewhat similar."

For that graph the internal resistance measure method is from the USABC manual appendix I [11], and is close to the method used by the TAO BMS. As you can see the internal resistance nearly doubles between 25% and 75% SOC. It is not practical for the BMS to measure internal resistance only in a very tight range of SOC as it needs also specific current and current variation parameters to be able to make a valid calculation. You cannot make it so tight that these conditions are too rarely met.

To mitigate the effect of SOC on the calculated cell resistance, the TAO BMS restricts the range of SOC and uses a running average on 10 measures. Although not perfect, it is a reasonable compromise.

Important note: The cell resistance calculated by the USABC method is different from the method used in laboratories that uses pulse current (the proper way to measure). There is no direct correspondence as it does not exactly measure the same thing, but as long as the same measurement principle is used over the lifetime of the battery it is a good indicator of battery ageing.

Going back to your point: When you first connected the BMS the default cell resistance is set at 0.25 mOhm (unless you have changed it). So if the actual cell resistance is lets say 0.35 mOhm, it will take ten measures for the displayed average value to match that resistance - thus giving you the impression that the resistance is increasing.

Looking at your battery data on the Cloud, I see that on July 25th, the average internal resistance has progressively increased by 0.07 mOhm over five consecutive measures. At that time the SOC was roughly between 50 and 65%. If previous measures where at a lower SOC, that could explain the increase. Let me know how it evolves over time ...
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