Be careful what you pay for

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I was taking a test prep class for Engineering Fundamentals, that is the first of 2 tests you take to get a Professional Engineer License. At the tine all disciplines needed to pass the same fundamentals test. The electrical stuff was 1-1/2 sessions long, they were the last classes in the series.

In the penultimate class, at the half way break, the instructor says “OK guys, thats it except for electrical. Anyone not interested in electrical can leave now.” Well over half the class left. These guys were all degreed engineers aspiring to become licensed Professionals, and they had no interest in the basic fundamentals if electricity.

Odd that the instructor would let them out as the test covers all disciplines (or at least it used to).

Of course, there are also sections on foundations, dams, earthquake design, chemical engineering, thermodynamic, computer engineering, sewage treatment plants, concrete mix design and a host of other sub disciplines of engineering.

Honestly, you will be hard pressed to find a PE 10yrs past getting licensed who would feel confident they could pass the test again.

It's really kind of silly that the license is all encompassing. Legally, I could sign and seal a set of plans for a new nuclear power plant. Would be foolish to do so but legally, I could.

PS: I work with a group of Master Electricians (non-marine related). Put them in a group and ask them a question and expect a long discussion where they come up with several different answers. Not to say there aren't obvious faulty works but when you get into some of the detailed stuff, they don't always agree.

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

My long story short: electrical/electronic/systems background, ABYC certification for Marine Electrical. A couple summers of "apprenticing" experience with small diesels, boat electrical, and other boat systems.

I was planning to make marine electrical my sunset career; COVID and other factors pushed me out of software a bit earlier than I planned. But now that I'm at the starting gate, I don't have the desire to incorporate, buy the truck, thousands more in tools and inventory (beyond my basic set), layers of insurance, accounting, collections, etc etc.

Currently I am getting a day or two a week of work assisting a good boat electrician, and I do small jobs for folks at our club. I've asked around a bit at some boat dealers, yards and marinas, but there's currently little interest in someone on a freelance or part-time basis, except as a dogsbody for minimum wage.

My conclusion from all that - it takes quite a bit of commitment to start up as a credible marine electrician, and, at least for a while, you're competing with the punters who haven't put in the same background or preparation. And if you do make it, you do have to bill at around $120+ an hour, in order to make the equivalent of $30 to $50/hour for a 40 hour week, after the above-mentioned expenses. And up here, you will definitely not be booked fully for long stretches of the year. The guy I know finds himself doing shrinkwrapping and other menial launch/haulout stuff to fill some hours.

Oother observations:

• powerboat owners spend; sailors are cheap! With exceptions, of course.
• Some owners do know the basics and can make a good initial stab at most problems, but in most case the pro is called only after something goes pear-shaped or fails utterly.
• owners don't like being told to do updates just because the standards have been updated (eg ELCI's, acid-resistant battery tray, etc), or to make changes to something that "still works" even if it's full of code problems.
• some owners are lousy at preparing for service access - eg stuff in the cabin, berths all made up. I like telling people that I'll make the berth up again, but it's still at electrician rate. Thinking about mints or chocolates for the pillow to soften the blow.

So, good marine electricians are hard to find because it's pretty hard to become a good marine electrician, and not the most lucrative line of work in many places.

I spent most of my life on small boats. am US Navy, just shy of retirement from active duty service. i have 17 years expertise working on and repairing small boats from 20ft to 120ft, most of my experience is on 34ft cabin cruisers with twin Cummins jet drives. My primary duties have been driving boats and shooting guns but i wholeheartedly switched to the maintenance side of the house after i bought my own boat, and realized how much it cost to get anything done. The Government is cheap when it comes to small boat systems and equipment. cheap automotive electrical connectors and wiring, mean chasing electrical gremlins in short order as things get corroded. we don't use ABYC standards, and their are few MIL standards applicable to the boat itself. even more fun is the high tempo of ops or training that require more of a "just make it work" attitude. several years of that and it can be a nightmare troubleshooting problems. and of course every boat is different lol. on the bright side i have extensive documented experience with AC/DC electrical, plumbing, air conditioning, Diesel engines.

Been trying for years to get my guys and myself through a few of the ABYC courses/tests for certification. generally they are at various cities at dates with random windows. not very conductive to Military schedules and deployments unfortunately. I'm on shore duty and intend to knock out as many of these course as i can before I get out, and take the Chapman surveyors courses while on terminal leave. I have a similar goal of making marine maintenance/repair, electrical, and surveying as part of my sunset career plans. At least to supplement my income while using my MGIB and finishing my degree, and as a "hobby" supplemental to whatever job i get after. somehow i never can get far from working on a boat, regardless of what my current task/ orders/employment is, i have tried a few times lol. I am Alaskan so if I head home, there is a lot of work working with fishing boats. however I remember them being cheap and having more of a "just make it work" mentality than sailboats. I have seen a need for US surveyors and boat work while cruising so in theory when i head out, it will supplement my income then as well.

as a sailboat owner I do resemble those observations LMAO. I am learning to be patient and do things correctly first regardless of time constraints and wants. this is more frustrating and takes longer as I have to order more rather than go to west marine. but the military "just make it work, get underway and fix it right later" has bitten me in the butte a few times on my own boat. the more frustrating things is doing all the backbone fundamental stuff as that isn't immediately visible or usable, but necessary for upgrades and repairs down the road ie replacing thru hulls and adding thru hulls and upgrading AC electrical for a water maker & air conditioning ect. currently ripping out all the wiring, mast refit and doing some engine repairs and upgrades now. shore duty = more time and no deployments but the almost overwhelming tasks of catching up on the work you should have gotten done 2-3 deployments ago.

I defiantly would have balked about immediately doing updates just because the standards have been updated eg ELCI's, or making changes to something that "still works" even if it's full of code problems, however they are on my list to do when I update my systems. not because i don't want to but because there is preliminary work that requires my time and money prior to adding that stuff, like replacing the wiring from the inlet and rerouting to the new separate AC panel, isolation transformers and replacing the Victron multiplus with a 240v Multiplus ect. it would actually be more enjoyable to just concentrate and work on someone's system and have the money or parts needed right from the get go. I probably will have someone else run through and survey my systems to see if i missed something, but that's a military thing more than common in the industry I have noticed.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

My long story short: electrical/electronic/systems background, ABYC certification for Marine Electrical. A couple summers of "apprenticing" experience with small diesels, boat electrical, and other boat systems.

I was planning to make marine electrical my sunset career; COVID and other factors pushed me out of software a bit earlier than I planned. But now that I'm at the starting gate, I don't have the desire to incorporate, buy the truck, thousands more in tools and inventory (beyond my basic set), layers of insurance, accounting, collections, etc etc.

Currently I am getting a day or two a week of work assisting a good boat electrician, and I do small jobs for folks at our club. I've asked around a bit at some boat dealers, yards and marinas, but there's currently little interest in someone on a freelance or part-time basis, except as a dogsbody for minimum wage.

My conclusion from all that - it takes quite a bit of commitment to start up as a credible marine electrician, and, at least for a while, you're competing with the punters who haven't put in the same background or preparation. And if you do make it, you do have to bill at around $120+ an hour, in order to make the equivalent of $30 to $50/hour for a 40 hour week, after the above-mentioned expenses. And up here, you will definitely not be booked fully for long stretches of the year. The guy I know finds himself doing shrinkwrapping and other menial launch/haulout stuff to fill some hours.

Oother observations:

• powerboat owners spend; sailors are cheap! With exceptions, of course.
• Some owners do know the basics and can make a good initial stab at most problems, but in most case the pro is called only after something goes pear-shaped or fails utterly.
• owners don't like being told to do updates just because the standards have been updated (eg ELCI's, acid-resistant battery tray, etc), or to make changes to something that "still works" even if it's full of code problems.
• some owners are lousy at preparing for service access - eg stuff in the cabin, berths all made up. I like telling people that I'll make the berth up again, but it's still at electrician rate. Thinking about mints or chocolates for the pillow to soften the blow.

So, good marine electricians are hard to find because it's pretty hard to become a good marine electrician, and not the most lucrative line of work in many places.

Here in Ontario I have two very good friends with all the right electrical certifications. Both could work 7 days a week, year round if they chose and for many years they did. Even in winter there is work for savvy people.

$130/hr and the markups on all the parts and equipment is not too shabby ... especially when a large portion of that is paid in cash. They've both done very well but are nearing the gate. Both looking for a young person to come in and work towards taking over the business ... can't find anyone.

[john manning]

Originally Posted by NNBill

Interesting story here. I was working on a USCG (Uncle Sams Confused Group) inspected oil barge. The barge was built, inspected and certified by ABS and USCG in the late 70,s. She is equipped with two 120 / 208 3 ph. Y generators, neutral bonded to ground at teh main switch board. As built, she was equipped with a ground fault ammeter that sensed current on the neutral to ground bus. This met and meets the requirement of a ground fault indicator. About 15 years ago a USCG "electrical engineer" inspector boarded the barge for an inspection. He insisted the ammeter did not meet the CFR,s (code of federal regulations) and ground fault lights needed to be installed. OK, built, installed and approved. A few years later, same inspector. "Where are your 120 volt ground fault lights?? I'm thinking "Ummm, it's a Y set up, A, B, and C phases are already monitored by the 208 lamps!!!! Inspector says, Nope, got to have ground fault lights in the 120 volt curcuits. Ok, made another panel, mounted it, wired it to the same terminals as the 208 fault lights, labeled it 120 volt, had it inspected, and approved. A couple of years later, same inspector " You can't have a "grounded" system!!! First problem, nowhere in the code is a definition of a "grounded" system. Inspector stated, neutral and ground can not be bonded anywhere, you must run 240 3 phase delta with a step down transformer to give you 120 volt 3 phase. Barge owner rewired everything , same inspector apporved the installation, then during the final inspection he said there is something wrong, there is 60 volts "neutral" to ground. I thought, "No fertilizer!!!" You mandated 120 VAC delta!!!!! Dont even ask what this same inspector mandated on a steel boat that was completely rewired from a dual 12 volt / 32 volt system to a single 12 volt system. Yes, dc ground isolation and ground fault lights where involved.... UGGG

We experience the same problems in New Zealand. Our Electrical Safety Standards are written in general terms without consideration for the practical situations where they need to be applied. Consequently they need to be be interpreted by the Inspector. That interpretation drifts from year to year. The biggest problems occur in situations where a true ground is not present, such as mobile power on vessels. The inspectors who understand electrical safety independent of regulation make life much easier.

[kaisardog]

I'm an engineer of 45 year's experience; I teach marie Electrics ME 101 for our local power squadron. many thanks to to boatpoker for an extremely informative and thought provoking article on totally incompetent marine electrical (and other ) work. your article will be a must-read in our course.

fair winds,

mitch m
port of erie PA

[AKA-None]

This is not just in small boat repairs
I’ve seen worse in a shipyard

[Juggerknot]

Originally Posted by Seapig

I am not sure where this will go, but I am so gobsmacked by the experience I post this as a kind of cautionary tale.
I recently spent the last 10 days helping a friend do some electrical work on his boat. (it was supposed to take a couple of hours) My friend is moderately frightened by electricity and hence has had all electrical work done by "marine electricians" associated with reputable yards.
-The Air Con was hooked up with a total of five different pieces of wire butt connected together. Three of those wires were solid 3 wire residential wire.

- The Air Con compressor was wired such that the frame was live. It worked because it was on a fiberglass boat and there was no ground to the compressor
- The generator was connected to the shore power such that if it was turned on the generator would back feed the shore power.
- The inverter was hooked to the battery charger such that when activated the inverter powered the battery charger that charged the batteries that charged the inverter etc. This may have been an attempt to invent perpetual motion I am not sure.
- There was a bare (powered) plug lying in the bottom of the access area that was meant to be plugged into the inverter manually when not on shore power. When on shore power it was hot.

We also pulled out several hundred feet of wire that just been cut off and left. Several were still powered.


I hope that my friend was just extremely unlucky but I suspect this problem is more widespread than might be appreciated.

Good help is hard to find and I'm afraid it's only getting worse...