Be careful what you pay for

[Tellie]

One more thing. I agree that there is really no licensing for most Marine related trades. We do minor electrical work in our shop but our 25 years of commercial electrical work gets us through. But it is true that you get what you pay for. Most good tradesmen in the fields such as electrical work, have a lot of electrical knowledge and follow ABYC. If the Marine trades start to demand licensing I would expect the hourly cost of good electricians to reflect this. If this happens most yards if not all will require this of their tradesmen and their prices will reflect that as well. It's a catch 22 and a "Be careful what you ask for" thing as well. I know what it takes to keep up with overhead here in S. Florida Marine trade. If licensing will be the future, which it may very well be, these days today will be considered the cheap days of boating and getting work done by professionals. I can't even imagine what the insurance companies will do with this and the requirements for new and existing boats will be and the requirements of who and who can not work on boats insured through them. Plus the insurance companies nixing right away any DIY work on your boat and requiring only licensed tradesmen to work on your boat. Changing out an electrical panel in your house is not hard. Try doing it with out permits and inspections and get caught. This is what you may be inviting into your fun in the sun. Just imagine the waiting list to get the licensed guys out to your boat. Dock space is a very expensive. Again, as Momma always said, "Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it"

[SuW]

Originally Posted by DanielI

I’ve noted that with DIY projects at home, I usually don’t actually save money, I just get much better workmanship. In all humility, I don’t think it is that I’m better than the craftspeople I might hire, it’s that I’m willing to put certain time in on details where they’ll cut corners to get everything finished. I suspect the same is true for boats.

Yeah, where we live, homeowners are permitted to do their own electrical installation work but have to have it inspected at our cost.

The inspector basically thrust his head into each room, saw that we had child-safe electrical outlets and said, "Oh, you know what you're doing!" and walked out.

I wasn't sure if I was happy or alarmed.

My elderly mother had a wall oven installed by professionals hired by Lowes. It was such a botch up that I called the electrical safety authority and after a lot of argument they sent an inspector. He basically shrugged and said he'd make a report. Nothing ever happened. And after weeks of waiting and stonewalling, I fixed the thing myself, completely against the rules.

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by SuW

Yeah, where we live, homeowners are permitted to do their own electrical installation work but have to have it inspected at our cost.

The inspector basically thrust his head into each room, saw that we had child-safe electrical outlets and said, "Oh, you know what you're doing!" and walked out.

I wasn't sure if I was happy or alarmed.

My elderly mother had a wall oven installed by professionals hired by Lowes. It was such a botch up that I called the electrical safety authority and after a lot of argument they sent an inspector. He basically shrugged and said he'd make a report. Nothing ever happened. And after weeks of waiting and stonewalling, I fixed the thing myself, completely against the rules.

"Alarmed" would be the word. Now we go from incompetent installers to incompetent inspectors. Another subject altogether. I was still in the electrical business when Hurricane Andrew hit. While everyone was getting mad at the builders I always thought the very first people they should have lined up against the wall were the inspectors. I saw exactly the same thing you describe over and over again back then. We got new Dade county code regulations for hurricanes which Dade country still brags about. The same people from the same county that hired all the inspectors that failed so miserably in the first place.

[Nicholson58]

Our boat was ‘professionally’ done, hired by the PO. It was decent and the wiring diagrams were up to date. Most wires were numbered. I was pretty lucky. However, I pulled over 250 feet of abandoned wire. The chase behind the nav was a rat’s nest. I have since organized with Panduit and added dual 120/250 shore switching through the isolation transformer. Many other updates, all noted on the diagrams.

There certainly are some scary messes floating out there.

[JimmyDarci]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Quickie.

A valuable lesson we learned is we could pay first class prices for professional work with no assurance we would get professional results.

Amen to that! The other problem with hiring out to the “pros” is timing. Last several years are so busy in marine trades that you wait indefinitely or you DIY as best you can.

Not limited to electric due to the surge in boat sales. We had a hydrolic leak “fixed” prior to sailing away with our new used boat and a very expensive H-yard charged us for fixing it .... then handed us a quart of Seastar hydrolic fluid “just in case”. $1,300 and it still leaked. Sailed her home over 300 miles and went though a half a quart on the way down. I payed premium money at the H-yard for that repair — well over $30k overall before sailing for lots of “professional “ work over six months but I was a small potato compared to the fat cats in the yard. Leak persisted until I found a kind commercial marine dealer out of Gloucester to explain hydraulics and sell me all the prefab parts for a complete rebuild. Now works great but it was DIY I didn’t plan for. Same with electric already on boat. We are reading the ABYC and trying our best to comply but good help is still tough to find due to huge increases in boat sales. Blessed to have basic mechanical skills.

Can you blame the electricians? They are in high demand no matter what they charge. Yard has folks like us clamoring for services and they hire the best they can find. My beef is with the yards for charging full price for a guy with 50% knowledge

The silver “Covid era” lining is the knowledge gained by DIY. Want to really “own” your boat? Learn how to DIY and do it right. Read the code and it usually isn’t that hard. BTW- this forum is invaluable for quick hints and suggestions to get DIY guys pointed in the right direction. A big thank you to those that have offered advice.

[SuW]

Originally Posted by Tellie

"Alarmed" would be the word. Now we go from incompetent installers to incompetent inspectors. Another subject altogether. I was still in the electrical business when Hurricane Andrew hit. While everyone was getting mad at the builders I always thought the very first people they should have lined up against the wall were the inspectors. I saw exactly the same thing you describe over and over again back then. We got new Dade county code regulations for hurricanes which Dade country still brags about. The same people from the same county that hired all the inspectors that failed so miserably in the first place.

Yep, it's a real shame. I remember in the 1980's an electrical inspection was a serious thing. (Grumble....Men were men, etc. etc).

There's a "contract out" mentality to make everything cheaper, I suppose.

Frankly, all we can do is protect ourselves, and to a limited extent our families and friends. If the "professional" knows that someone sensible is going to be present and checking up on them they'll likely take more care.

I often get the "silly little old lady" treatment and I can tell you, that doesn't go down well

Funny enough, all the plumbers and HVAC guys around here are actually appreciative of knowledgeable home owners. Go figure.

[boatpoker]

My perspective after 30 years as a marine surveyor / delivery captain ...

The marine trades have always been packed with self styled experts who had little or no training. It's getting worse in a hurry.

Honest and knowledgeable brokers are a rarity. I know three and two of them are on the edge of retirement.

Qualified, reliable diesel mechanics are almost as rare. I know five that I would hire and three of them are on the edge of retirement.

I know three marine electricians I would hire. I know many who are self taught and simply have no idea of the differences between wiring their basement or working on a boat. If they don't know that electrolysis does not occur on boats ... don't hire them. Look for an ABYC electrician also certified in marine corrosion.

There are about 250 marine surveyors in Ontario and 240 of them had the $40 for business cards as their full qualifications. Up until 2 years ago there were 9 superb surveyors in Ontario who I would routinely recommend.
There are now only two ! 250 in the province and I saw the same 10 faces at every course I took.

All the good guys in the marine business are retiring are on the edge of retiring. No new blood is coming in. More than ever you must thoroughly vet those you hire.

[john manning]

I own an electrical and engineering business that works on ships and yachts. When working on a ship (one with local registration) if we see a fault we report it and it gets repaired. When working on a private yacht when we see a fault we report it and then wait for the owner to decide if they will do anything about it. Their initial response is nearly always, just finish the work I asked you to do. About 90% then say its been no problem so far so nothing further required.

Yacht skippers are responsible for their vessels. Always get your "professional" to explain in detail the work they are going to do and then go over that work with them when they have finished. If they cannot do that get someone else.

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by john manning

I own an electrical and engineering business that works on ships and yachts. When working on a ship (one with local registration) if we see a fault we report it and it gets repaired. When working on a private yacht when we see a fault we report it and then wait for the owner to decide if they will do anything about it. Their initial response is nearly always, just finish the work I asked you to do. About 90% then say its been no problem so far so nothing further required.

Yacht skippers are responsible for their vessels. Always get your "professional" to explain in detail the work they are going to do and then go over that work with them when they have finished. If they cannot do that get someone else.

There's a good bit to be expanded upon on this post. I know on a forum it's easy to say that the yards and pros are rip offs, I hear those stories all the time from the owners side. What I'd like to hear for a bit is the other side of the coin. I bet there is more than one pro here that could regale you with owner horror stories as well. Then we can get to how most Marinas and yards feel about sailors and make the gun threads seem like a Pippy Longstockings story....

[NNBill]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Electricians may understand the code and how to wire according to code without understanding the concepts of electricity.

Interesting story here. I was working on a USCG (Uncle Sams Confused Group) inspected oil barge. The barge was built, inspected and certified by ABS and USCG in the late 70,s. She is equipped with two 120 / 208 3 ph. Y generators, neutral bonded to ground at teh main switch board. As built, she was equipped with a ground fault ammeter that sensed current on the neutral to ground bus. This met and meets the requirement of a ground fault indicator. About 15 years ago a USCG "electrical engineer" inspector boarded the barge for an inspection. He insisted the ammeter did not meet the CFR,s (code of federal regulations) and ground fault lights needed to be installed. OK, built, installed and approved. A few years later, same inspector. "Where are your 120 volt ground fault lights?? I'm thinking "Ummm, it's a Y set up, A, B, and C phases are already monitored by the 208 lamps!!!! Inspector says, Nope, got to have ground fault lights in the 120 volt curcuits. Ok, made another panel, mounted it, wired it to the same terminals as the 208 fault lights, labeled it 120 volt, had it inspected, and approved. A couple of years later, same inspector " You can't have a "grounded" system!!! First problem, nowhere in the code is a definition of a "grounded" system. Inspector stated, neutral and ground can not be bonded anywhere, you must run 240 3 phase delta with a step down transformer to give you 120 volt 3 phase. Barge owner rewired everything , same inspector apporved the installation, then during the final inspection he said there is something wrong, there is 60 volts "neutral" to ground. I thought, "No fertilizer!!!" You mandated 120 VAC delta!!!!! Dont even ask what this same inspector mandated on a steel boat that was completely rewired from a dual 12 volt / 32 volt system to a single 12 volt system. Yes, dc ground isolation and ground fault lights where involved.... UGGG

[Rotten Ricky]

As a former industrial electrician and sailor of 40 years here are my suggestions:

Both DIY and professionals can screw up. If you need a job done, ask around with both owners and other service people and you usually get a good sense of better quality work at a reasonable rate due to the workers reputation. However, not all boat owners know what they are talking about, but you have to start somewhere.

Don't assume new means "gold standard". I have seen atrocious wiring in brand new vessels, and travel trailers/caravans. When I had trouble with my new engine, I could not figure out why - until I found that, not only were there poor and incorrect connections, but a wire of one colour came out the other end of the loom as another colour. Yes, someone had joined the wire using two different-coloured wires, and it was not on the wiring diagram.

The factory-installed, labour-saving, profit-enhancing looms that are used on many engines and other devices can be problematic. Not only are they prone to corrosion and unreliable connectivity, but there is the "Catch 22" of needing to have the wiring in place to have the engine running, but you have to pull the connecting plugs apart to test the wiring - which, of course, kills the engine! Better to have all wiring terminate at shielded terminal strips, studs, etc that can be tested easily.

In the end, I ripped off all the wiring and re-wired it myself and it has run flawlessly. Note again - this was a brand new engine WIRED AT THE FACTORY!!

A large number of fires in boats and buildings start from heat generated from loose connections. Tug on all your connections to check that they are tight. Just because your engine or vessel was working last season does not mean it is safe from fire now. If "quick-connects" slide off easily, remove them and squeeze them very slightly with pliers to give them more tension and better grip.

Expensive tinned cable is not always needed for marine wiring, especially in low salinity areas like mine. So long as you use dialectic sealant/grease and/or heat-shrink insulation at terminals etc, you can use non-tinned wire/cables. Applying a thin smear of the grease on all connecting surfaces as they are installed will help prevent corrosion.

Always find, label and record your circuits. When an emergency happens you don't want to have to start finding a certain lost wire...

Replace every single one of the tiny slotted terminals screws with Philips (X) or better still, the Robertson (square socket) head screws, and you are far less likely to lose them in the bilge. Who has not been there? Why do manufacturers continue to supply these ridiculous, difficult, slotted screws? Buy a bag of 100 Robertson screws for 1/4 of the price from a wholesale supplier.

Good preparation and access to wiring is essential for safe and happy sailing.

Cheers, RR.

[elses_pels]

Boy, I feel so much better now. I pulled all the wires and will eventually have to rewire my boat. I worked with 12V before in cars and read about the marine best practices so I will have a good go at it. I was very reluctant to do so but reading this horror stories makes me think that if I can do a modestly good job I'll be ok afterwards. Don't get crazy at me, I will have a surveyor checking everything afterwards, for insurance and peace of mind. That seems to be a good way about it.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by elses_pels

Boy, I feel so much better now. I pulled all the wires and will eventually have to rewire my boat. I worked with 12V before in cars and read about the marine best practices so I will have a good go at it. I was very reluctant to do so but reading this horror stories makes me think that if I can do a modestly good job I'll be ok afterwards. Don't get crazy at me, I will have a surveyor checking everything afterwards, for insurance and peace of mind. That seems to be a good way about it.

Make sure whoever you hire has ABYC electrical and/or marine corrosion certification.

[sailing_jack]

Yes, even commercial yards have issues. By boat is in a yard where they build and maintain ferries and fishing boats. You would think that they would have the expertise. The foreman certainly knows his stuff, but it all rests on who is assigned the job.
I insist on checking the work with the foreman to make sure anything I see gets addressed.

The PO was very proud of the fact that it was all newly wired, His buddy a house electrician did it. Yep, house wiring, breakers and panels throughout.

I showed that to one of the guys at the yard who said he new boat electrical, he looked at it and said "what's wrong with that?"

One of the other guys came over since I asked about replacing seacocks, then asked "you want Stainless steel then"
OK, maybe fishing boats are different.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Tellie

What I'd like to hear for a bit is the other side of the coin.

My long story short: electrical/electronic/systems background, ABYC certification for Marine Electrical. A couple summers of "apprenticing" experience with small diesels, boat electrical, and other boat systems.

I was planning to make marine electrical my sunset career; COVID and other factors pushed me out of software a bit earlier than I planned. But now that I'm at the starting gate, I don't have the desire to incorporate, buy the truck, thousands more in tools and inventory (beyond my basic set), layers of insurance, accounting, collections, etc etc.

Currently I am getting a day or two a week of work assisting a good boat electrician, and I do small jobs for folks at our club. I've asked around a bit at some boat dealers, yards and marinas, but there's currently little interest in someone on a freelance or part-time basis, except as a dogsbody for minimum wage.

My conclusion from all that - it takes quite a bit of commitment to start up as a credible marine electrician, and, at least for a while, you're competing with the punters who haven't put in the same background or preparation. And if you do make it, you do have to bill at around $120+ an hour, in order to make the equivalent of $30 to $50/hour for a 40 hour week, after the above-mentioned expenses. And up here, you will definitely not be booked fully for long stretches of the year. The guy I know finds himself doing shrinkwrapping and other menial launch/haulout stuff to fill some hours.

Oother observations:

• powerboat owners spend; sailors are cheap! With exceptions, of course.
• Some owners do know the basics and can make a good initial stab at most problems, but in most case the pro is called only after something goes pear-shaped or fails utterly.
• owners don't like being told to do updates just because the standards have been updated (eg ELCI's, acid-resistant battery tray, etc), or to make changes to something that "still works" even if it's full of code problems.
• some owners are lousy at preparing for service access - eg stuff in the cabin, berths all made up. I like telling people that I'll make the berth up again, but it's still at electrician rate. Thinking about mints or chocolates for the pillow to soften the blow.

So, good marine electricians are hard to find because it's pretty hard to become a good marine electrician, and not the most lucrative line of work in many places.