Be careful what you pay for

[Stu Jackson]

Oh, boy, if we all had even a shilling for every time we've heard: "I don't know much about elekrisity..."

[hamburking]

One of the boats I owned came with a secondary power panel and a spiders nest of wires. I removed ALL the wiring, filling several garbage bags. I also removed all the old, chaffed wiring from the mast.

Then I wired up new running lights with a new battery, selector switch, and a couple 12Volt outlets.

Everything else I used handheld...VHF, GPS, and lots of inexpensive flashlights. Add an ORIGO stove and I was good to go!!!

Engine was pull start outboard on the stern.

KISS!!!

[DanielI]

I’ve noted that with DIY projects at home, I usually don’t actually save money, I just get much better workmanship. In all humility, I don’t think it is that I’m better than the craftspeople I might hire, it’s that I’m willing to put certain time in on details where they’ll cut corners to get everything finished. I suspect the same is true for boats.

[Time2Go]

Originally Posted by Seapig

I am not sure where this will go, but I am so gobsmacked by the experience I post this as a kind of cautionary tale.
I recently spent the last 10 days helping a friend do some electrical work on his boat. (it was supposed to take a couple of hours) My friend is moderately frightened by electricity and hence has had all electrical work done by "marine electricians" associated with reputable yards.
-The Air Con was hooked up with a total of five different pieces of wire butt connected together. Three of those wires were solid 3 wire residential wire.

- The Air Con compressor was wired such that the frame was live. It worked because it was on a fiberglass boat and there was no ground to the compressor
- The generator was connected to the shore power such that if it was turned on the generator would back feed the shore power.
- The inverter was hooked to the battery charger such that when activated the inverter powered the battery charger that charged the batteries that charged the inverter etc. This may have been an attempt to invent perpetual motion I am not sure.
- There was a bare (powered) plug lying in the bottom of the access area that was meant to be plugged into the inverter manually when not on shore power. When on shore power it was hot.

We also pulled out several hundred feet of wire that just been cut off and left. Several were still powered.


I hope that my friend was just extremely unlucky but I suspect this problem is more widespread than might be appreciated.

You are not alone here.
I too have seen some unbelievable shoddy and unsafe work
by so called “Professionals “ at a rate of 125hr
I get a kick out of it here when folks recommend hiring a
Professional
It’s not a guarantee of getting good work.
Would somebody please tell me just what constitutes a
Marine Electrical Professional?
What education?
What certification?
What apprenticeship?
There is a reason land electricians are licensed
Cheers
Neil

[Scott Berg]

Full time marine electrician/sparkie here. So true. I teach a class at boat shows on basic wiring and have my 'hall of shame' that keeps growing as students share their stories. It isn't that we don't have good codes between the RCD and ABYC (which incorporates the necessary parts of the NEC and USCG 33CFR and 46CFR). It's that few take the time to learn and observe them and far too many owners are willing to pass on the expensive but very busy shop and go the cheaper/can get to it right away shop. EVERYONE in the business who is good is slammed right now... if they aren't busy be worried....

[Scott Berg]

Originally Posted by Time2Go

You are not alone here.
I too have seen some unbelievable shoddy and unsafe work
by so called “Professionals “ at a rate of 125hr
I get a kick out of it here when folks recommend hiring a
Professional
It’s not a guarantee of getting good work.
Would somebody please tell me just what constitutes a
Marine Electrical Professional?
What education?
What certification?
What apprenticeship?
There is a reason land electricians are licensed
Cheers
Neil

I'd expect at a MINIMUM:

Would somebody please tell me just what constitutes a
Marine Electrical Professional?--Full time in the trade with insurance and extensive references; just looking at someones truck/tools tells me a lot

What education?--AT LEAST a LOT of CE from ABYC and tech schools
What certification? AT LEAST ABYC Electrical and preferably 3 or 4 more
What apprenticeship? AT LEAST 3-5 Years working with a Master (15-20 years in the trade)
There is a reason land electricians are licensed. AGREED; I like to work with USCG licensed engineers wherever possible. In the Annapolis to Solomons MD area where I work there are a dozen really good techs. Most do NOT work for the big yards but rent shops and work in them. None are cheap, all are busy as heck right now. Hence all the fly by night guys and owner wired nightmares...

The solution? More Tech Schools and well defined apprentice programs. I never take more than one apprentice at a time; current one is very good and won't be with me much longer!

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Time2Go

You are not alone here.
I too have seen some unbelievable shoddy and unsafe work
by so called “Professionals “ at a rate of 125hr
I get a kick out of it here when folks recommend hiring a
Professional
It’s not a guarantee of getting good work.
Would somebody please tell me just what constitutes a
Marine Electrical Professional?
What education?
What certification?
What apprenticeship?
There is a reason land electricians are licensed
Cheers
Neil

I don't disagree but if one hires a doctor, lawyer, contractor, plumber, marine electrician, surveyor or hairdresser ... some due diligence is in order.

[Tillikum]

Originally Posted by grantmc

I'm sure that's not a unique story, but thanks for posting. Time, DIY, want it cheap, new kit, and the difficulties of running and hiding wire all contribute to that result in many boats.

My friend is moderately frightened by electricity and hence has had all electrical work done by "marine electricians" associated with reputable yards.

You seem to have overlooked the critical component: lazy, incompetent "professionals" more interested in ripping off the customer as quickly as possible than doing the job properly.

Anyone who's had experience of the N.A. construction industry, for example, will know that this a a widespread cultural problem in N.A.: it's all treated as a great big joke by these clowns who call themselves tradesmen.

One more reason why we like to buy products from countries where there is a culture of diligence, and why Detroit is a wasteland.

[C420sailor]

My parents paid their marina/yard for work for a couple years. Labor was $155/hr, whether it was electronics installation, fiberglass, or mindlessly (and terribly) painting things. For that money you’d expect high quality work.

It was garbage. Take down the mast? They cut all the wires above deck instead of taking one extra minute to remove the access panel in the cabin. Put it back up? Crimps and electrical tape. Outside.

[djousset]

First month with my boat (and being VERY leery of all things electrical) I hired someone to hook up mast wiring/lights and diagnose non-working bilge pump to the tune of $125 per hour. I was around…and after watching him fumble about for way too long I googled/you tubed a few things and suggested perhaps it was a blown fuse. He looked excited and 3 minutes later the bilge pump was working. Sigh. The mast wires? I dismissed him and went at it myself, and got 90% of them properly connected. I won’t take on everything myself but I have become a lot less fearful of trying.

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

Expensive, poorly designed, even more poorly executed work done by supposed "professionals" is much more common than you’d imagine. Doing electrical systems correctly may not be rocket science, but there’s more ways to do it wrong or poorly than there are to do it right.

It’s not horribly difficult to read the many DIY books and figure out a safe, workable system. But when someone who’s getting paid suddenly finds out in the middle of a job that he’s missing "the right, necessary piece," there’s an often irresistible impulse to "finish" the job with what he has at hand rather than waste a day going back to the shop/ store to get what’s needed.

But sometimes "professionals" will sell you what they have in stock, or the units that they know well, or make more money on. You’re only real protection is to know enough to supervise what they’re doing.

Sadly all of the above. i know some good marine electricians but they have been in the industry for decades and have a lot of experience. they cost more.

the biggest issue is the price to become a "Marine Electrician" is essentially $0. its not like land based electricians where you have to have completed a 4 year journeyman training and comply to a standard. you don't have any oversight like having to request a permit or schedule an inspection after. at some locations you could be prevented from working if you don't have ABYC credentials and insurance, but there are ways around that. boaters can be a transient lot, and it can be a few years before the poor standards, work or materials come to light, and with the corrosion issues of a salt water environment "its because of the of the salt air"... west coast marinas i saw were gated and controlled access by the office forcing abyc standards and insurance at least, i saw several just go through when someone opend the gate. east coast seem to be pretty open access. regardless it doesn't matter as there isn't many ways to hold anyone accountable because its not illegal unless it was so negligent it causes injury or major damage. even survey requirements for insurance are 5 years or more, so if you find something wrong its already to late to go after someone to make corrections. best you can hope for is word of mouth that that a company is good, even then you could get their worst electrician that day. companies and technicians that are this busy make more mistakes.

Realistically it is a low percentage of fires or catastrophic damages, so there isn't much attention or motivation to change laws. to be noted some countries do require certification, credentials, and maybe oversight, like Australia, but my understanding is that's only for the AC circuits. The US has nothing like that in place. it will probably get worse as there has been a big surge in boat sales at the end of the pandemic, and less technicians at the moment. my neighbor is a new new boater and bought a monstrous beast, said he has money but cant get anyone out to fix the small tasks he needs worked on. He said everyplace he has called is busy for months.

I've found that the idea of "you have a boat so your rich" is very prevalent and services and equipment can be far overpriced. at the end of the day repair work is $100-$200 an hour or more. right now the good ones are so busy they aren't able to look at your boat for months, sometimes 6 months or more. what is a boat owner to do?
its not a surprise that many boaters DIY, find a cheap uncertified electrician, or just the local marina "Guru". I have seen a lot of electrical issues caused by "professionals", and manufacturers.

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by Scott Berg

Full time marine electrician/sparkie here. So true. I teach a class at boat shows on basic wiring and have my 'hall of shame' that keeps growing as students share their stories. It isn't that we don't have good codes between the RCD and ABYC (which incorporates the necessary parts of the NEC and USCG 33CFR and 46CFR). It's that few take the time to learn and observe them and far too many owners are willing to pass on the expensive but very busy shop and go the cheaper/can get to it right away shop. EVERYONE in the business who is good is slammed right now... if they aren't busy be worried....

Retired commercial electrician as well. I agree with the above. The really good guys are slammed right now. We are trying to find good people to work but it's impossible. The good guys are all working, the really good guys are starting their own business. At this point I don't need experienced people I need good quality and principled people. I can train them easily enough It just doesn't seem that there are any left. This would be an awesome time for anyone thinking of getting into the Marine business. The "Help wanted" signs are everywhere here for all kinds of business. If someone found a shop around here that isn't overwhelmed I'm not sure if it' would be a fluke or a red flag.

[Firemandivi]

I'm no electrician but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express the other night. Honestly I've re-wired my entire house before and am comfortable working with electricity. Question for the original poster and others here, the story sounds too crazy to be true. Are there really boats like this out there and if so, how is that even possible?

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by Time2Go

You are not alone here.
I too have seen some unbelievable shoddy and unsafe work
by so called “Professionals “ at a rate of 125hr
I get a kick out of it here when folks recommend hiring a
Professional
It’s not a guarantee of getting good work.
Would somebody please tell me just what constitutes a
Marine Electrical Professional?
What education?
What certification?
What apprenticeship?
There is a reason land electricians are licensed
Cheers
Neil

that's the hardest part. $125 an hour doesn't guarantee $125 per hour quality. frustrating. I had my boat in Driscolls Boat yard, Mission Bay in San Diego. the boat yard worker's only paint the bottom now, and force you to use on site contractors. that way the boat yard charges you more lay days and aren't liable for poor quality work. there was no standards, i had to do the research and force them to comply to standards. even then you leave the yard feeling violated and exhausted.

boat manufacturers are not much better. government boats use cheap auto wiring and connectors, auto style AC that isn't big enough or durable, stuff just falls apart. other manufacturers still thread gate valves onto thru hulls instead of using seacocks ect. the workers inside those factories don't necessarily have any certifications either.

there isn't even a review service like angies list for marine services companies.

[SuW]

Originally Posted by bcboomer

One of the most surprising things I found on my boat was the wiring at the base of the mast. The previous owner had the boat hauled to Washington and then had the mast stepped and rigged by "professionals".

Of the 6 wires reconnected, 2 were nicely crimped and wrapped in heat shrink tubing, 2 were connected with marettes and 2 were twisted together with electrical tape. All in the bilge.

Oh man. That's familiar.
Our DPO had had a radar installed, I think as a birthday gift from someone. The scanner was installed on the mast. Install of the display unit was never done, so the "professionals" just put a long coil of radar cable plus connector in the bilge (I can hear them cheering as they run away!)

Then the boat was trucked from Connecticut to Lake Champlain, by "professionals". In order to get the mast out with minimum problem they cut the radar cable 2 feet from the connector...

So, when we bought the boat we had to find two 11+-pin disconnect pairs and 50 feet of 11+ conductor cable. And then do 44 teeny weeny soldering joints.

Amazingly the thing works. Ironically, we don't really use it...
(Thank goodness for Sugru.)